E6 question, again!

garri · Sep 24, 2006

I am processing in a Jobo and am happy with the results but have one question, mainly from a logistics standpoint.
I have looked at several threads here and on other forums and there seems to be no real concensus on wether to use stabilizer in a seperate container.
Some think its fine to do in the Jobo tank, others say never...
Question then, does anyone have a definitive answer? Bear in mind I have read many threads on what folks think, I am keen to find out what people know. I am sure we all know the frustration of having both sides of an argument maintained at the same time!!
thanks
Gari

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2006

garri said:
I am processing in a Jobo and am happy with the results but have one question, mainly from a logistics standpoint.
I have looked at several threads here and on other forums and there seems to be no real concensus on wether to use stabilizer in a seperate container.
Some think its fine to do in the Jobo tank, others say never...
Question then, does anyone have a definitive answer? Bear in mind I have read many threads on what folks think, I am keen to find out what people know. I am sure we all know the frustration of having both sides of an argument maintained at the same time!!
thanks
Gari

Gari, I have done both! I have done this for nearly 40 years. I find that it makes no difference. Others will argue differently.

I wash my jobo reels in hot water before setting them out to dry.

At Kodak, we used the same hangers in the stabilzer bath as we used in the developer. Just make sure you wash the reels or hangers well before you reuse them.

The color stabilzer contains photo flo. This is what some contend causes the problems, but I believe that if you wash well there is no problem.

PE

garri · Sep 24, 2006

Photo engineer, thank you. I was hoping that was the answer as I was looking at a thread regarding homemade film dryers(I have a problem with getting dust free chromes) using a hairdryer and drain pipe, keeping the film in the reels makes it possible/attractive as they fit, obviously.
Oh bye the way, do you wash after stabilizer or not? another point of contention!!
Thanks again
Gari

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2006

garri said:
Photo engineer, thank you. I was hoping that was the answer as I was looking at a thread regarding homemade film dryers(I have a problem with getting dust free chromes) using a hairdryer and drain pipe, keeping the film in the reels makes it possible/attractive as they fit, obviously.
Oh bye the way, do you wash after stabilizer or not? another point of contention!!
Thanks again
Gari

Do not - repeat - DO NOT wash film after the stabilzer!

It can remove an essential part of the stabilzation.

PE

timeUnit · Sep 24, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Do not - repeat - DO NOT wash film after the stabilzer!

It can remove an essential part of the stabilzation.

PE

Maybe OT, but your exclamation mark made me jump...

I cross process slide film (4x5) at home and had issues with water spots. So I added a last bath in water and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol wash aid, and hung to dry. Problems with water spots are gone. Can this last bath be a problem? As I'm cross processing, I'm not counting on the negs to be stable for 50 years, but five or ten would be nice...

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2006

timeUnit said:
Maybe OT, but your exclamation mark made me jump...

I cross process slide film (4x5) at home and had issues with water spots. So I added a last bath in water and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol wash aid, and hung to dry. Problems with water spots are gone. Can this last bath be a problem? As I'm cross processing, I'm not counting on the negs to be stable for 50 years, but five or ten would be nice...

You may not get 5 or 10, especially cross processed. You are using the wrong dye forming chemistry when you do this, and optimum dye stability is not guaranteed. CD4 used in C41 is more polar than CD3 used in E6 and the coupling chemistry must be carefully adjusted to give the best hue and stability.

Washing out the stabilizer will decrease effectiveness by quite a bit.

DO NOT WASH COLOR FILM AFTER THE STABILZER!

PE

srs5694 · Sep 24, 2006

To further hijack the thread, I've got some old color (C-22 and C-41) negatives that got wet in a flood. When going through these, organizing them, and scanning them, I found that many had marks that could be washed away in water. Should I use C-41 stabilizer on these after doing this to improve longevity, or will washing them years after processing not cause problems? For the oldest (C-22) negatives, would C-41 stabilizer be appropriate, or would something else (say, E-6 stabilizer) be better?

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2006

srs5694 said:
To further hijack the thread, I've got some old color (C-22 and C-41) negatives that got wet in a flood. When going through these, organizing them, and scanning them, I found that many had marks that could be washed away in water. Should I use C-41 stabilizer on these after doing this to improve longevity, or will washing them years after processing not cause problems? For the oldest (C-22) negatives, would C-41 stabilizer be appropriate, or would something else (say, E-6 stabilizer) be better?

Older films should be treated with a formalin stabilzer, and not the more modern version used by E6 and C41 that contains no formalin.

I suspect though that the stabilzing reaction is complete and rewashing and treating with photo flo should be enough.

PE

davetravis · Sep 24, 2006

Back to the original question.
PE is correct, and reflects my experience.
A hot wash of the reels and tanks after the stabilizer/photoflo is all that's needed, and will have no effect on future processing in the same equipment.
Do not rinse after the stabilizer!!!
Good luck.

Fotohuis · Sep 25, 2006

To PE:
It's seems to be that you're a specialist in film and chemical influences.

What is exactly the difference between old and new C41 emulsions and the effect of the formalin on it.

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2006

Fotohuis said:
To PE:
It's seems to be that you're a specialist in film and chemical influences.

What is exactly the difference between old and new C41 emulsions and the effect of the formalin on it.

The old magenta coupler required formalin to form the methylene bis coupler to prevent fade and yellowing, but the new couplers do not.

In addition, the formalin served as a mild bacteriostat and fungicide in the film. This has been argued over here on APUG, but Haist and Mees and James remark on the longevity of formalin in coatings. It hangs around a long time.

In any event, modern stabilzers have proprietary chemistry to assist stability of the newer films including a biostat property. They also help resist instability problems caused by reduced washing in some processes.

PE

Fotohuis · Sep 25, 2006

Thanks for your reply.
So for the film it doesn't matter if you're using a formaline stabilizer on old and new emulsions.

It's only a discussion for environmental and a health issue.

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2006

Fotohuis said:
Thanks for your reply.
So for the film it doesn't matter if you're using a formaline stabilizer on old and new emulsions.

It's only a discussion for environmental and a health issue.

It does matter in this sense.

You cannot use the new stabilzer with older films. This has been stated here and is mentioned on the Kodak and Fuji web sites. AFAIK, you can use the old stabilzer with new films as long as the wash time is sufficient, but that is not gospel. I have not gotten any verified information on this.

PE

L Gebhardt · Sep 25, 2006

What is "newer film"? I have some older (5 to 10 years out of date) slide film that is still fine in the freezer. Does this require formalin?

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2006

L Gebhardt said:
What is "newer film"? I have some older (5 to 10 years out of date) slide film that is still fine in the freezer. Does this require formalin?

See the Kodak web site for that information. I don't really know when the cutoff was.

PE

garri · Sep 25, 2006

Thanks PE for the info. Not that I have the problem, what would be the solution to drying marks without recourse to a final rinse?
Gari

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2006

garri said:
Thanks PE for the info. Not that I have the problem, what would be the solution to drying marks without recourse to a final rinse?
Gari

For color film, stabilzer made for the film, for B&W a photo flo (or equivalent) rinse.

Distilled water washing might help.

Otherwise, nothing will help. Drying marks are a normal event when washing with most any tap water. Rinses are intended to eliminate that problem. They are generically surfactants or wetting agents.

Regarding B&W final rinse, don't use a liquid detergent with a scent or a tint in it. Also, be careful because some detergents are too alkaline for film.

PE

timeUnit · Sep 25, 2006

garri said:
Thanks PE for the info. Not that I have the problem, what would be the solution to drying marks without recourse to a final rinse?
Gari

It does help to let the drying take some time. When drying in my bathroom that is a bit humid I have much less issues (mostly none) with drying marks.

timeUnit · Sep 25, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
You may not get 5 or 10, especially cross processed. You are using the wrong dye forming chemistry when you do this, and optimum dye stability is not guaranteed. CD4 used in C41 is more polar than CD3 used in E6 and the coupling chemistry must be carefully adjusted to give the best hue and stability.

Washing out the stabilizer will decrease effectiveness by quite a bit.

DO NOT WASH COLOR FILM AFTER THE STABILZER!

PE

OK OK OK!! ;-)

I'll try to dry them without a final wash next time. I realise using C41 chemistry on E6 films is a horrible idea from an archival standpoint. From a creative standpoint -- I haven't had this much fun with color film ever. I guess I'll have to live with the negs fading or discoloring, and see it as a type of "passing" photography.

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2006

timeUnit said:
OK OK OK!! ;-)

I'll try to dry them without a final wash next time. I realise using C41 chemistry on E6 films is a horrible idea from an archival standpoint. From a creative standpoint -- I haven't had this much fun with color film ever. I guess I'll have to live with the negs fading or discoloring, and see it as a type of "passing" photography.

Hey, I do a lot of cross processing of EPP myself. I know the pitfalls, and have had good stability (so far). I just don't want to say it is ok and have someone complain to me that it isn't ok.

I even cross process my Endura paper to get positive images.

From a creative standpoint, I agree with you totally. I have posted some of the crossed processing here and on PN.

PE

E6 question, again!

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