E6 processing troubleshooting

accozzaglia

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I recently sent some Ektachrome EIR for processing. The rolls came from different, but always-frozen batches bought directly from the film shop which I've held in frozen storage for years (until it was time for me to use it).

The lab I used for these was a place I'd never tried before. What I found with each of the processed rolls were areas where a kind of "emulsion noise" appeared (usually in highly exposed areas near exposure transitions, as in the white-grey-blue clouds). In the example, I've highlighted where I made the enlargement.

A previous EIR roll I processed at another lab (but which came from one of the above-bought batches) didn't yield this issue. On close inspection, this "noise" is definitely not scratches in emulsion or substrate, and it only appears in the most exposed areas (even in isolated spots). Also, mindful of the film's age (expiries in 2004 and 2007), I deliberately shot at a lower ISO than suggested to counteract some of the ageing. It doesn't appear to be cosmic ray fogging.

Since I've only processed black-and-white film, I don't know what may have happened. By the look of it, I'd almost think one of the baths during development was exhausted.

Any hypotheses?
 

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was it developed in a dip and dunk machine or roller transport?
 
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accozzaglia

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Per the lab, they do dip-and-dunk given that they run all their accumulated E6 orders (of all sizes, roll to sheet) once they've accumulated enough orders to make an E6 run cost-effective. They do E6 runs roughly every two weeks. I suppose that's what made me hypothesize that they were working with a fixed amount of chemistry for that run and that perhaps they ran more than their soup could handle. Beyond that, I don't know.
 

Bob Carnie

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This was not done by a major Toronto Lab as there is nobody doing E6. I have heard of someone nearby offering this weekend service but never
was much interested in E6 since my days at Colourgenics 1989 when E6 was vibrant.

The fact you processed in another lab same film with now issues( same year?) makes me believe it was a chemistry issue failure.
The reason all large good labs stopped E6 is that it is a process that requires a lot of film, immaculate process control... Lack of film to process, closed all the big players with the good Refrema machines.


QUOTE=accozzaglia;1953803124]Per the lab, they do dip-and-dunk given that they run all their accumulated E6 orders (of all sizes, roll to sheet) once they've accumulated enough orders to make an E6 run cost-effective. They do E6 runs roughly every two weeks. I suppose that's what made me hypothesize that they were working with a fixed amount of chemistry for that run and that perhaps they ran more than their soup could handle. Beyond that, I don't know.[/QUOTE]
 
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accozzaglia

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You're right, Bob. It was sent to Montréal via VCG. My previous (from which everything turned out fine) was done at TIW.

The local person (Mississauga, I think) who offered E6 processing from home as a weekend service, David Nardi, had to stop once it began to take over his life.
 

MattKing

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The Lab in Vancouver seems to still be running a regular E6 dip and dunk line.
 

MattKing

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I've had a few 120 E6 films developed by them with good results, as well as no problems.

BradleyK here on APUG has started using them for much higher volumes. I'm sure he would be happy to tell you about his experience.
 
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Is EIR actually a straight-E6 process film? In Australia only a skint number of individuals process colour IR film because of its rarity and expense, and I've never heard of E6 being used.
Beside that query, age-related deterioration, even with optimal long-term storage, is a possibility.
 

davedm

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Seems like retained silver pointing to insufficient bleaching.

Maybe PE can throw more light.

You can ask the lab to rerun the film through bleach, fix and stab after checking with PE.

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
 

Kevin Harding

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I have one last batch of EIR to develop, MattKing. I'll consider The Lab, although I'd love to hear from anyone's experiences with them. Otherwise, I may need to send these to somewhere in the U.S.

At the moment, I do all my colour/E6 through the Lab and have never had any issue. Good prices, super quick processing (same day), and it's on my way into work. They're the kind of lab that gives you your negs, turns on the lightbox in the counter, and gets you to inspect the film in front of them before they let you pay for it.

Highly recommended.
 

mts

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Old film? If I recall, EIR started out as an E4 process. The switch to E6 came fairly late in the game. E4 was an 85 degree process. If this film is really old, you are lucky if you only got a little reticulation!
 
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It saddens me that a city the size of Toronto can't seemingly support at least one e-6 lab.

Anyway, if you want another option in Ontario, there's GPC labworks in Ottawa http://www.gpclabworks.com/ . I've had about 15 rolls done through them over the last year and the quality is always excellent. Their turnaround time seems to be about 1-3 days from my experience, so I guess they have still have a good amount of demand?

When I asked how long he plans to offer e-6 development, they were adamant that they will run an e-6 line "as long as someone in the world makes e-6 chemicals", so their attitude is pretty great too
 

MartinP

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Don't you have a Fujicolor lab in Canada? It would be the lab most likely to take all the E6 that is collected in every small or large shop in the country, if here (NL) is anything to go by. I take my, admittedly infrequent, E6 to a retailer in my local town and they send it off to the big national lab. The results have been excellent and the lab is probably the highest volume E6 lab in the country.

Thanks to this thread I now know that infra-red Ektachrome in E6 exists -- I always thought that it was E4 till the end. What filter was the OP using I wonder? IIRC a dark yellow would result in a very 'false-colour' result which was actually useful for something or other (besides detecting IR non-reflective materials for the military).
 

MattKing

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Don't you have a Fujicolor lab in Canada?

No.

To the best of my knowledge, Kodak was the only manufacturer who ran Canadian labs themselves, and all three of them are long gone.
 

MartinP

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No.

To the best of my knowledge, Kodak was the only manufacturer who ran Canadian labs themselves, and all three of them are long gone.

Wow. I'm beginning to understand why E6 is a bit rare in North America.

Just to cheer you up, roll film (135 or 120) is Euro 3,50 with the local drop-off / pick-up service for the Fujicolor lab.
 

MattKing

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Wow. I'm beginning to understand why E6 is a bit rare in North America.

Just to cheer you up, roll film (135 or 120) is Euro 3,50 with the local drop-off / pick-up service for the Fujicolor lab.

In the interest of clarity, in its day, in North America there were lots of independent E6 labs, and the film/chemistry/machinery manufacturers were extremely competitive in their efforts to equip and supply them.
 
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accozzaglia

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Omnibus reply...

Is EIR actually a straight-E6 process film?

Per box, it may be processed in either E-6 or the more uncommon AR-5 chemistry.

What I'm experiencing, however, seems to be lab-specific, as my previous EIR processed at a different lab didn't suffer from this artifact.

Seems like retained silver pointing to insufficient bleaching. Maybe PE can throw more light.

This seems to make sense, although I'm not a chemist.


With exception that I can't personally hike to Vancouver every time I want to review the film I sent in previously, their willingness to allow for inspection on site is good service practice of any pro lab. To be clear, the handler for sending my film to Montréal, VCG in Toronto, were pretty accommodating and allowed me to inspect the film on site before I paid for processing. I expressed mild concern about the artifacts, which was only just-resolvable under a loupe, but it wasn't until I began to scan at home (Plustek OpticFilm) when I could see precisely what was going on at a granular level.


Old film? If I recall, EIR started out as an E4 process. The switch to E6 came fairly late in the game. E4 was an 85 degree process. If this film is really old, you are lucky if you only got a little reticulation!

Very old EIR, pre-1980s, sure. What I was using was EIR dated 5/2004 and 11/2007 — last batches sourced from probably the same master roll, I'm guessing. And from these batches, I'd previously processed stuff without these artifacts appearing.

It saddens me that a city the size of Toronto can't seemingly support at least one e-6 lab.

It saddens me greatly, but that's the way things are in a city where the several industries supported by imaging — fashion, architecture, entertainment, journalism, PR — demand instant turnaround. I remain disappointed by TIW's retirement of their E-6 service. Although my first E-6 order with them years ago got screwed up on their end (they misread their own instructions on a push), they more than made up for it with every order I sent their way thereafter.


I haven't heard about Ottawa still being an option, but I'll look into it. Whether Ottawa or Vancouver, I'll have to Purolator or FedEx it.

When I asked how long he plans to offer e-6 development, they were adamant that they will run an e-6 line "as long as someone in the world makes e-6 chemicals", so their attitude is pretty great too

Very promising!

Don't you have a Fujicolor lab in Canada?

Not any longer. Until about 2009, there was one still running in Hamilton, and it's where local drug store photo labs sent their (rare) E-6 and even K-14 orders. With K-14, of course, they simply were a forwarding byway for Parsons, KS.


As far as I've been aware, EIR was E-6-compatible for a long time. I know PE would know more precisely, but it seems the switchover occurred sometime during the 1980s, since I've seen old EIR boxes with late '80s expiry dates which were the same process suggestions as the final batches sold in the late 2000s.

With my 2009 batch of shooting, as with my 2015 batch, I always use an orange G/21/O56 filter. I've always preferred EIR's rendering with that range over using yellower (15/16) or redder (23A) filters — too cold and too severe, respectively. In 2009, I used a Hoya G. In 2015, I've used both a Tiffen 21 (as with my OP example) and a Kenko SO-56.

In the interest of clarity, in its day, in North America there were lots of independent E6 labs, and the film/chemistry/machinery manufacturers were extremely competitive in their efforts to equip and supply them.

Seconding MattKing. Even in a medium-sized city like Minneapolis, where I did much of my shooting between 1998 to 2002, there were no fewer than three major pro E-6 labs (and possibly more I've long forgotten) — NCE and Procolor (at both labs, Hennepin and Ford). All were quite busy with film processing, K-14 excepted.
 
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accozzaglia

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Seems like retained silver pointing to insufficient bleaching. Maybe PE can throw more light. You can ask the lab to rerun the film through bleach, fix and stab after checking with PE.

Wait. I missed this part first time round. Film can be re-run through bleach, fix, and stab? Without damage? Wouldn't everything already be permanently fixed from the first run?
 

Rudeofus

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Film can be re-run through bleach, fix, and stab? Without damage? Wouldn't everything already be permanently fixed from the first run?

You read that correctly. Bleach, fix and STAB are all processes which run to completion in E6 processing and which can be repeated as often as you see fit (CD runs to completion, too, but it can't be redone after bleaching&fixing). Everything *should* be permanently bleached and fixed right after the first run, but if that didn't happen properly the first time, subsequent rebleach/refix and rewash/reSTAB can save the day.

Let me put it this way: the only process fault you can repair after processing is complete is incomplete bleaching&fixing. If anything happened during FD and CD step, that's it, your slides are toast. If your slides don't look normal after rebleach&fix&wash&STAB, there isn't really much you can do.
 
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