E6 Kit-bash Bleach Problem

Aidan Sciortino · Jun 20, 2020

I recently picked up one of cinestill's new cs6 kits, attracted by the promise of 9+ stops of dynamic range from their developer.

However, I've also read about the problems associated with using a blix. I developed my first batch of slides using a blix and they came out OK, but the resolution was less than I'd have liked and I figured I'd try something new. I followed rudeofus' helpful tutorial on converting your bleach fix to a bleach, and then using a neutral rapid fixer to fix the negatives.

The cinestill kit (like many others) comes with a 3-part blix. Part A contains Ammonium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite (presumably for the fix part of the blix), part B contains Ferric Ammonium EDTA, and part C contains Sodium Metabisulfite. Per the guide I figured that part B was what I should mix with the Potassium Bromide (100g, bought on ebay from artcraft). I then used the guide to adding acetic acid by testing with baking soda. The baking soda doesn't violently fizzle and bubble, but it does fizzle and bubble.

When I pulled the film off the reels I saw that they looked very dark (across everything, including the borders), and in reading a few other threads concluded that it was likely an issue with my bleach not being acidic enough, so I added some more acetic acid (until the baking soda fizzled a bit more aggressively), and then re-bleached and refixed my rolls.

They got a little bit better, but still aren't close to cleared (I've been checking the leader to see if they clear).

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I might do? I'm considering just buying another cinestill kit and using the blix from it. I don't know of any place to buy "normal" E6 bleach near me, and ordering online is beyond my current price point as shipping is incredibly expensive.

Thanks!

Aidan

Rudeofus · Jun 20, 2020

This is a three part BLIX, something I have no personal experience with. Most BLIX kits use two concentrates, and the Ammonium Ferric EDTA containing concentrate also contains a bleach accelerator. In your case the bleach accelerator may be contained in the part with the Sodium Metabisulfite (part C). Sadly, the safety data sheet does not mention anything.

I would ask to you add the contents of part C to your bleach, with some luck this brings the bleach up to speed to work properly.

mshchem · Jun 20, 2020

Just use it as blix.

Aidan Sciortino · Jun 20, 2020

Rudeofus said:
I would ask to you add the contents of part C to your bleach, with some luck this brings the bleach up to speed to work properly.

I did so and rebleached and refixed the film. I bleached for 11 minutes and fixed for 6. They got a little bit better but they still are dark. I can now clearly see the edge markings, although the leader isn't clear (it's a dark blueish color). Should I expect this because they've been bleached and fixed before? Should I test on a new roll?

I forgot to redo the acetic acid steps, might I need these again? That bottle had some acetic acid which is why I didn't add any.

koraks · Jun 21, 2020

Perhaps just use the product as intended by the manufacturer. There's a good chance they actually tested it the way it's meant to be used.

Donald Qualls · Jun 21, 2020

koraks said:
Perhaps just use the product as intended by the manufacturer. There's a good chance they actually tested it the way it's meant to be used.

Sure. Because no one should ever try to improve things.

Blix is included with many/most C-41 and E-6 kits because it cuts down on steps in the process and storage bottles needed -- not because it produces the best final result. Since you'll be using up the developer(s) and replacing the kit after a number of rolls (half a dozen to a couple dozen, depending on the kit and your tolerance for results), there's no strong argument (to the chemical manufacturer/vendor) for separate bleach and fix -- except that it doesn't let you do special things, like controlled bleaching, bleach bypass, and similar. Obviously bleach bypass is of very limited utility in E-6, but even then, your bleach and fixer are at odds in terms of longevity, so there might be a question whether they'll outlast the developers.

To OP, if you have a C-41 kit around, that blix ought to work as well as the E-6 blix mixed as instructed. They do the same job -- remove all image silver and halide from the developed film. E-6 needs more of the former, so might take longer than C-41 blix step. As an alternative, I've read multiple reports (haven't tried it myself) that you can make a working bleach from potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide (converts developed silver back to halide), and then use a separate rapid fixer (ideally a neutral or alkaline version -- C-41 fixer or something like TF-4). You may need to watch the film to see if all the dark developed silver has reverted to milky halide, given there's no canonical time given for this type of bleach. Or you could obtain disodium EDTA (sold on Amazon), add ferrous sulfate to convert it to ferrous EDTA, and use that to mix your own modern type color film bleach from formulae that are widely available.

Otherwise, though, Koraks is probably right, at least to the extent that the various C-41 and E-6 kits available generally work well within their lifetime and capacity limitations. I haven't yet tried the Cinestill E-6, but I've used their Cs41 kit for a few rolls so far, and been pretty happy with it.

koraks · Jun 21, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Because no one should ever try to improve things.

Logically improvement is a step you'd take once something is already working of sorts. Getting an E6 blix kit and starting to modify it before ever having tried using it as intended isn't a matter of improving things.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but without a baseline or a systematic approach, it's just looking for trouble.

Take the business of trying to balance pH by watching a fizzling reaction - why not get a $20 pH meter?

E6 is pretty finicky and guesstimating, eyeballing and reckoning don't go well with it.

Rudeofus · Jun 21, 2020

The base line is fairly simple to obtain: bleach&fix a short clip with a ferricyanide rehal bleach and a neutral fixer. This shows you roughly what FD and CD created, although long term stability of slides may be reduced by the too strong bleach.

I am a little bit surprised by your report of dark blue color. I went through scores of failed bleach experiments, but never saw blue color. The only time I saw dark blue color was when I accidentally got CD into my FD.

mshchem · Jun 21, 2020

Probably the biggest reason Kodak and Fuji have separate bleach and fixer baths is that's how every processing lab is set up. Same with Pro6 Fujichrome E6. The product that Tetenal has been selling for the last 30 years works fine for low volume users.
I use Kodak and Fuji for C-41 and E-6 respectively. However I've used the Tetenal E-6 5L kits and have got excellent results.

The only product I'm not fond of is the powder C-41 Press kits, however these were designed originally, for use in the field, by journalists.

Rudeofus · Jun 22, 2020

mshchem said:
Probably the biggest reason Kodak and Fuji have separate bleach and fixer baths is that's how every processing lab is set up. Same with Pro6 Fujichrome E6. The product that Tetenal has been selling for the last 30 years works fine for low volume users.

Kodak spent large amounts of money on BLIX research, and removing one bath from the setup would have been very attractive. Both Kodak and Fuji also supported and still support RA-4 as BLIX process.

Ron was very clear, that Kodak's tests revealed BLIX as adequate for RA-4. but not for color film products. Yes, I, too, have had excellent results with Tetenal's kits, but I've never done an X ray analysis for retained silver either, so my observations are much less reliable than Ron's hard measurements.

Aidan Sciortino · Jun 22, 2020

Rudeofus said:
I am a little bit surprised by your report of dark blue color. I went through scores of failed bleach experiments, but never saw blue color. The only time I saw dark blue color was when I accidentally got CD into my FD.

Interesting. The FD and CD are freshly mixed, and in different pitchers at that. I'm not sure what's up with the blue color but i'm fairly certain they didn't get back contaminated. The Part C bottle had acetic acid in it, I'm wondering if adding it brought the bleach to a state where it was too acidic or something. I'll pick up a PH meter in the near future since, as koraks pointed out, they are inexpensive on amazon. This way I can hopefully identify if that's what went wrong with this bleach.

I was washing for 5 minutes after the bleach step with a Jobo cascade washer, and still observed some bleach carryover into the fix, so that could also be a problem (exhausting the fix faster than previously).

Rudeofus said:
Ron was very clear, that Kodak's tests revealed BLIX as adequate for RA-4. but not for color film products.

This is part of the reason I was interested in trying to separate out the bleach and fix steps. I'm from Rochester (where Kodak is based), and know a few Kodak engineers, and have some understanding via family members of how strenuous the testing they perform is on products. As such, following their recommendation is appealing.

I'm going to test the DIY blix -> bleach/fix combo again in the future, or try mixing my own bleach. In the meantime I'm going to try and finish the current film with a Blix, which is en route.

Mr Bill · Jun 23, 2020

mshchem said:
Probably the biggest reason Kodak and Fuji have separate bleach and fixer baths is that's how every processing lab is set up.

This is like the question of what came first, the chicken or the egg. I was personally involved, as a young, wet-behind-the-ears QC tech, in the conversion of a couple of cine processors from C-22 process to C-41 when it had just been introduced. So it was clear to me that Kodak's process design, with separate bleach and fix, is what drove the configuration of the processing labs.

Rudeofus said:
Ron was very clear, that Kodak's tests revealed BLIX as adequate for RA-4. but not for color film products.

As far as I recall, Ron (PE) didn't explain practical aspects from a lab standpoint, which became my primary "expertise" in these areas. To be clear, my expertise is in color neg and print, not E-6, but I'm sure the bleach is fundamentally similar.

Here's why no competent lab doing "significant" to high volume processing would use a C-41 "blix," versus separate bleach and fix. First, the bleach typically has to be aerated in the process. (In one of our C-41 cine machines, running 50 ft/min, with maybe (?) a couple hundred gallons of bleach in it, if the aeration went off for 30 minutes there would be a significant effect on the control strips - the portion designed to monitor bleaching performance.) IF the bleach and fix were combined then this aeration would soon "kill" all the sulfite, the preservative that is crucial for fixer. So a combined bleach and fix is not suitable for a processing volume that requires aeration. A second point is an economic/environmental issue. Since the bleaching component is the highest cost item, and it doesn't really degrade, it's preferable to collect the overflow waste and regenerate it (you mainly replace the iron component that has been diluted by carry-in, plus bromide that is lost in the bleaching process). If the fixing component is combined with the bleach then it is not possible to regenerate because the fixing would be inadequate; even if the silver is mostly removed, because the thiosulfate-based fixer is essentially "poisoned" by iodide released from color films. Consequently the lab not only loses the ability to extend the life of the (expensive) bleach, but has much more bleach waste to disposal of.

I don't think that anyone in the industry would argue that a film blix is anything more than a second-rate option, suitable only for smaller volumes of work before being discarded. I'm guessing that it's probably fine for a small-scale user who will use it lightly and then throw it away. (Cinestill may well have some advanced bleaching technology, but the fixer issues are still pertinent.)

Now, in the case of color PAPER, these problems do not exist, and thus a blix is very suitable. It's pretty normal to regenerate paper blix in, let's say, pro-grade labs. But it takes some special equipment and knowledge.

I'm speaking from experience in an outfit that processed several miles of film per day, and vastly more paper. For a couple months each year we would run upwards of 3,000 (US) gallons of paper blix replenisher per day, all of it regenerated. So while some of this is hypothetical it has a good foundation.

mshchem · Jun 23, 2020

Mr Bill said:
This is like the question of what came first, the chicken or the egg. I was personally involved, as a young, wet-behind-the-ears QC tech, in the conversion of a couple of cine processors from C-22 process to C-41 when it had just been introduced. So it was clear to me that Kodak's process design, with separate bleach and fix, is what drove the configuration of the processing labs.

As far as I recall, Ron (PE) didn't explain practical aspects from a lab standpoint, which became my primary "expertise" in these areas. To be clear, my expertise is in color neg and print, not E-6, but I'm sure the bleach is fundamentally similar.

Here's why no competent lab doing "significant" to high volume processing would use a C-41 "blix," versus separate bleach and fix. First, the bleach typically has to be aerated in the process. (In one of our C-41 cine machines, running 50 ft/min, with maybe (?) a couple hundred gallons of bleach in it, if the aeration went off for 30 minutes there would be a significant effect on the control strips - the portion designed to monitor bleaching performance.) IF the bleach and fix were combined then this aeration would soon "kill" all the sulfite, the preservative that is crucial for fixer. So a combined bleach and fix is not suitable for a processing volume that requires aeration. A second point is an economic/environmental issue. Since the bleaching component is the highest cost item, and it doesn't really degrade, it's preferable to collect the overflow waste and regenerate it (you mainly replace the iron component that has been diluted by carry-in, plus bromide that is lost in the bleaching process). If the fixing component is combined with the bleach then it is not possible to regenerate because the fixing would be inadequate; even if the silver is mostly removed, because the thiosulfate-based fixer is essentially "poisoned" by iodide released from color films. Consequently the lab not only loses the ability to extend the life of the (expensive) bleach, but has much more bleach waste to disposal of.

I don't think that anyone in the industry would argue that a film blix is anything more than a second-rate option, suitable only for smaller volumes of work before being discarded. I'm guessing that it's probably fine for a small-scale user who will use it lightly and then throw it away. (Cinestill may well have some advanced bleaching technology, but the fixer issues are still pertinent.)

Now, in the case of color PAPER, these problems do not exist, and thus a blix is very suitable. It's pretty normal to regenerate paper blix in, let's say, pro-grade labs. But it takes some special equipment and knowledge.

I'm speaking from experience in an outfit that processed several miles of film per day, and vastly more paper. For a couple months each year we would run upwards of 3,000 (US) gallons of paper blix replenisher per day, all of it regenerated. So while some of this is hypothetical it has a good foundation.

Absolutely no argument with what you are saying. I guess the point I failed to make is the smallest users 2 rolls a week etc. Can get acceptable, perfectly fine results with blix film kits.

Now I on the other hand buy enormous quantities of Fuji Pro6 chemistry from Unique photo in New Jersey to get the "REAL STUFF" . I bought 1 gallon of color developer starter that requires 5mL per liter of the tank solution. I re-bottle the stuff into really nice Nalgene bottles. Pro6 is definitely the way to buy rapid fix, I got a 5 gallon cubitainer delivered free for 45 bucks. I have a free E6 developing policy with my friends. Still haven't had many takers.

The point isn't Blix, the point is not so many young folks are willing to take on darkroom work. You and I are of the same mind in using the best possible process. I suspect a lot of what I have may end up wasted. I do love E6 I'm trying to work up the courage to splurge on 8x10 Fujichrome, I'm definitely buying some 8x10 Kodak color negative film. I want to make contact prints.
Best Regards Mike

Mr Bill · Jun 23, 2020

mshchem said:
I guess the point I failed to make is the smallest users 2 rolls a week etc. Can get acceptable, perfectly fine results with blix film kits.

Hi, I wouldn't argue with that either. But... for someone who knows what they're doing, and maybe has a moderate amount of testing gear, that person can get much, much more life out of their chemicals. I guess it mostly comes down to what it's worth to them. Like I sometimes say, you don't want to use a dollar's worth of your time to save fifty cents (a half-dollar equivalent) worth of chemicals. Unless it's just for fun, I guess.

So "the best" is probably different things to different people.

Aidan Sciortino · Jul 25, 2020

I blixed the film with the cinestill e6 kit, to no avail.

I'm thinking my problem may be with the first developer although I don't know what could've gone wrong with it. However the leader (ordinarily white) came out with a blue hue. I've attached a photo.

Fresh Kodak E100:

E100S (expired 2009):

I think I'll be trying clip tests to try and figure out what's wrong with the process. Does this look characteristic of a first developer problem? Should I consider ordering new first developer, or try mixing some per recipes suggested online?

Thanks!

Aidan

mohmad khatab · Jul 28, 2020

Aidan Sciortino said:
I blixed the film with the cinestill e6 kit, to no avail.

I'm thinking my problem may be with the first developer although I don't know what could've gone wrong with it. However the leader (ordinarily white) came out with a blue hue. I've attached a photo.

Fresh Kodak E100:

E100S (expired 2009):

I think I'll be trying clip tests to try and figure out what's wrong with the process. Does this look characteristic of a first developer problem? Should I consider ordering new first developer, or try mixing some per recipes suggested online?

Thanks!

Aidan

I will advise you of advice that appears to be trivial, but it is practically very useful advice and you will be sure of that when you implement it.
250 mL deionized or distilled (52 ° C)
Copper sulfate...................... 25 g
Ammoniume chloride .............25 g
Water to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>500ml
PH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.0
،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،
Use this solution for two minutes only before using (Bilix).
Note: The film should be thoroughly washed with warm water before and after using this solution

E6 Kit-bash Bleach Problem

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E6 Kit-bash Bleach Problem

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