E6 first developer and base fog

[Athiril]

Since I didnt really get an answer in my other thread...

What makes or breaks (image vs no or barely any image) a first developer for colour reversal?

I read somewhere there needs to be a level of fog in the first developed image, so that the base will be clear/'clear' etc free of fog in the positive image.

Well I'm having problems with a dense base/base fog in the positive image.

Here is the example - very dense

Is simply 'more development' the answer? Because the b&w neg after first dev looks fantastic - I have a few frames of it left, if I fix it, it'd be great, or if it further processed it into a colour neg it'd be great.

My first development procedure was with Rodinal 1+50, +1.2g ascorbate, and carbonate, to put the pH up around 12 to 13. This is an improvement over previous cold process results.

I've previously gotten very good looking positives free of fog/base density in the positive image using nothing but Rodinal 1+50, but at 40c and for 2 hours with agitation.

There are a few reasons I believe this base fog problem to not have anything to do with Rodinal's weak colour developing properties, if you bleach and fix after Rodinal - the image is very thin, extremely difficult to see by eye almost invivislbe - its not possible for that to cancel out a full developed colour image.

I've also used Xtol 1+1 at 20c, for a normal amount of time (8 to 15 min from memory) which develops a great look b&w neg which can process to form a great colour neg, but try to process that as a reversal, you'll just get basically opaque film.

And I've had also great colour positives using Xtol 1+1... at 40c for long period of time however..


Any help would be great.. otherwise I might try the 1+50 @ pH 12-13 with ascorbate again, but leave it stand for an hour.

 

[domaz]

I've always heard that the E-6 first developer image is very weak and faded that is normal. What are you actually trying to accomplish using Rodinal as the first developer? Or are you just trying to develop E-6 films ad B&W negatives (you have a huge stock of expired E-6?).

 

[Athiril]

I dont have commercial E6 first developer, and have a lot of Kodak E6 CD replenisher + starter, I've mixed my own E6 first developer, replacing bromide and iodide with benzotriazole and metol with aminophenol and it works very well.

However, I want a cold colour process - I get excellent results cold colour neg process (b&w first dev, fix, bleach, E6 CD, bleach, fix).

I also want a concentrate first dev. In any case I have seen with my own eyes Xtol and Rodinal both working as brilliant E6 first developers, albeit at extended temps and times. Given now that I see 1+1 develops a great negative quickly, as can 1+50 and 1+100 in an hour stand... I would think that such high temps and times that result in great results for me in the past would have developed till the film was all black...

I've also tried 1+100, 1 hour stand with 1 g/L sodium thiocyanate.. again brilliant negatives.. opaque film after reversal process.

Here is an example of the phenidone-aminophenol-hydroquinone-ascorbic acid developer I mixed up modifying an existing E6 first developer recipe.. also bromide and iodide free.. replaced it all with benzotriazole.

Shot on Reala, (6min 30sec, 38c first dev)

 

[trendland]

E6 Formullas ( FD - First Develloper )

The question is what are the chemicals in comercial first devellopers ? I suppose that Kodak uses X-TOL in originaly formulla. I also gues that Tetenal E6 Kids uses Tetenal Ultrafin Plus as first develloper.

Have you any idea what is Fujihunt FD made of ?

I´ ve done some experiments with ordanary D-76 as first - develloper and the result is in the near you described it.