E6 and Photo Flo

Jeff Canes · Feb 4, 2012

should or can you use Photo Flo on E6 film?

zsas · Feb 4, 2012

I believe you need a final rinse specifically for slide film because not using such you film will deteriorate due to not having the antifungal agent which prevents the degradation of the film plus it has a element in it that makes it dry streak free, Photoflo I don't believe has an anti fungal and thus you stand to lose you film over time due to this fact

I think this is what wd work
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/110230-REG/Kodak_8140279_E_6_Final_Rinse.html

Jeff Canes · Feb 4, 2012

Ok, that sounds like a No. I recently bought an E6 kit from Freestyle and yes it says to final rinses for 5-mins with water. I only asked about the photo flo because to me it seems to help a lot with BW. And this will be my first time trying E6.

Rudeofus · Feb 5, 2012

PE has commented extensively on the final wash for E6, check out (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for recipe plus explanation.

charlief64 · Feb 5, 2012

Please read this:
I worked in a medical clinic and routinely used Formalin (part of PE's formula). It is used to preserve tissue samples for lab analysis. It can be used safely. Gloves are a MUST. This is the warning on the medical grade Formalin that I use.

Formaldehyde is a known carcinogen. It should only be handled by personnel wearing protective clothing such as gloves.
Formaldehyde is a noxious gas. Formalin must be kept in a sealed container in a well-ventilated area. Exposure to fumes will result in irritation to eyes and respiratory surfaces.
Some people develop a sensitivity to formalin over a period of time which involves repeated handling of the chemical. These individuals should avoid handling the chemical. Please err on the side of safety.

Rudeofus · Feb 5, 2012

charlief64, I agree we should mention the potential dangers possibly arising from the chems we have in our recipes. I have called for that inmultiple occasions yet failed to do that here

On the other side it should be mentioned that the formalin used in the final rinse is very dilute (see PE's recipe), which means not just less of the stuff around the user but also less likelihood of nasty fumes. It's still a good idea to keep the concentrated formalin in a vented area and to not poke your nose into it when you mix the final rinse. Also note that I was unable to get 37% formalin, 20% was the highest concentration they would sell to me (random doofus without any license or permit for toxic substances).

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

Unfortunately, the E6 process must contain formaldehyde in one form or another in the process for proper image stability. The Kodak method (and Fuji) is to use the Formaldehyde Bisulfite adduct, a safe and odorless version of Formalin, for this purpose in one of the process steps. If this is not done, then the formalin must be in the final step!

Kits from other companies cannot use this method and so the formalin must be in the final step. This is due to the proprietary nature of using the Bisulfite Formalin adduct.

BTW, I have one of the patents on this!

And yes, I know how toxic Formaldehyde is purported to be. I know of many EK scientists who used it for years. They don't seem to be suffering from the symptoms claimed to result from use of Formaldehyde. Interpret that as you wish, but the average photo engineer is as healthy or ill as the average population in spite of the use of chemicals like this.

PE

charlief64 · Feb 5, 2012

I did't want to scare anyone. I to, have used It for many years. No ill effects. My Point was, Just use common sense and "Don't Get Any On You".

Rudeofus · Feb 5, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
And yes, I know how toxic Formaldehyde is purported to be. I know of many EK scientists who used it for years. They don't seem to be suffering from the symptoms claimed to result from use of Formaldehyde. Interpret that as you wish, but the average photo engineer is as healthy or ill as the average population in spite of the use of chemicals like this.

The average photo engineer worked in a well equipped lab, had a fume hood at his disposal and a great deal of understanding of what kind of materials he dealt with. This is most likely not the case with random folks trying to mix a final rinse because their kit didn't come with one. This may or may not apply to the thread starter but it inevitably applies to some of the folks who will read this thread a few years from today.

Note that the same shop which happily sells me hydroquinone powder, potassium ferricyanate powder and lye pellets in any quantity I can afford would give me formalin only in 20% or lower concentration. There must be something nasty about formalin at higher concentrations and a recipe posted to a public forum listing it a ingredient should carry some form of warning notice for the unwashed masses.

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

You are right from one POV but from another you must consider the quantity and frequency that we used it! Sometimes it was liters at a time and every work day of the year.

PE

brucemuir · Feb 5, 2012

I remember in the 70's era biology class in Jr high we routinely handled formaldehyde with no safety precautions mentioned period.

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

Ahh, yes, the eternal Frog dissection class!

Ours went over a 2 week holiday and the Frogs were beginning to ripen when we got back, even in spite of the Formalin and the cooler chest.

PE

brucemuir · Feb 5, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Ahh, yes, the eternal Frog dissection class!

PE

ahaaahaa, exactly.

Must be a fairly common US public school experience.

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

Actually college Zoology. We were not allowed to dissect anything in HS.

PE

brucemuir · Feb 5, 2012

I can remember vividly the experience complete with classmates huffing the jars of formaldehyde haha.
This was in 7th grade down here in MD.

Bet this doesn't happen today.

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

No, they huff Testor's glue! Better, safer and quicker high and less costly.

PE

brucemuir · Feb 5, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
No, they huff Testor's glue! Better, safer and quicker high and less costly.

PE

Oh my I remember that stuff from my muscle car model building days.
I also remember when it started disappearing from stock due to paranoia from someone.

edit: oh btw I meant I bet they don't dissect anything these days due to political correctness etc

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2012

I have no idea. I preferred Botany, it was not as messy and smelly. But, if you take Biochemistry then you have to "sacrifice" your own test animals for enzyme extraction or organ / tissue examination. My good friend Marge used to tell us how many pigeons she offed in a day! Meanwhile, in another building I was merely making Phenidone type compounds by mixing and boiling! I had the easy less messy job.

PE

A_Caver · Feb 7, 2012

Alternative to Formalin

Can Zinc Acetate be used instead of formalin? It also is an anti-fungal and is mentioned in Grant Haist's book.

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2012

No. The Formalin reacts with the couplers. Zinc Acetate does not.

PE

pukalo · Feb 7, 2012

Dont use Photo Flo with the Arista Kit. Instead buy some Kodak E6 Final Rinse. Very inexpensive, acts as photo flo to prevent drying spots, and also has anti fungal properties to preseve the film from microbe attack. Doesnt solve the color shifting issue though, only a formalin type rinse will do that. You can buy that if you wish from maco direct . de
They sell the Tetenal E6 Stabilizer (final) rinse. 1L concentrate to make 1000L, about $35
BTW, the Tetenal kit is much better than the Arista. Colors look as good as Kodaks kit. Arista color saturation tends to be very high, making skin tones look too saturated. And no Stabilizer / Final Rinse is included or even recommended (foolishly). Kodak kit is of course the best, but sadly no longer available, and its very expensive to buy the mass chemicals in bulk quantity now.

Photo Engineer · Feb 7, 2012

The Kodak final rinse will not work properly unless one of the earlier steps in the process contained formalin. The Pre Bleach contains this in the Kodak and Fuji kits.

So, somewhere, an E6 process must contain a Formalin step or a Formaldehyde derivative or the dyes will fade.

This is not true of C41 since about 2000 or thereabouts.

PE

BrendanCarlson · May 28, 2012

Sorry to awake this thread, but what if you cross process, do you still need a formalin wash?

zsas · May 28, 2012

I started a thread last year re this very thing (slide film cross processed) and the answer is yes....

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Photo Engineer · May 28, 2012

ALL E6 FILM REQUIRES FORMALIN!

PE

E6 and Photo Flo

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