E-6 Reality Check on Wikipedia

Discpad · Aug 20, 2007

Hi gang!

I've been massaging the E-6 Process article on Wikipedia, and I'd like to get some feedback for both accuracy as well as clarity.

My goal is to build an accurate reference so when questions arise here on APUG, we can refer people to the article.

Please, post your comments here in this thread so we can discuss them, and then I'll add them in as appropriate. One of the problems with Wikipedia in general is the basic concept of anonymous edits; but if one person handles the actual entries, clean, concise and accurate articles is the end result.

Cheers!
Dan Schwartz

[Note 1: I had to re-subscribe because the server lost my login info.]
[Note 2: I also posted this on Photo.Net, where I usually hang out.]

Photo Engineer · Aug 20, 2007

Dan;

Comments follow:

1. The stannous chloride in the reversal bath fogs the emulsion instantly.
2. The color developer contains no hydroquinone. Sorry.
3. The prebleach contains no formalin.

Hope this helps for initial comments.

PE

Photo Engineer · Aug 20, 2007

More comments:

1. A Ferricyanide bleach will cause excessive dmin in the film without a clearing bath and may hurt the image. E6 films were designed to go through a Ferric EDTA bleach.

2. A Sodium Thiosulfate fix will not be strong enough for E6 films without using very long fix times.

3. You list more than 3 baths for a so called 3 bath process.

PE

Discpad · Aug 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
More comments:

1. A Ferricyanide bleach will cause excessive dmin in the film without a clearing bath and may hurt the image. E6 films were designed to go through a Ferric EDTA bleach.

2. A Sodium Thiosulfate fix will not be strong enough for E6 films without using very long fix times.

3. You list more than 3 baths for a so called 3 bath process.

PE

Ron, I didn't do the 3 bath process: I simply inherited it and left it alone.

But, I sure as hell will update it with your suggestions!

Discpad · Aug 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Dan;

Comments follow:

1. The stannous chloride in the reversal bath fog the emulsion instantly.
2. The color developer contains no hydroquinone. Sorry.
3. The prebleach contains no formalin.

Hope this helps for initial comments.

PE

Ron:

1) I need to research the reversal bath action a bit more: It's very late and my fiancee wants me to go to bed!

2) Nowhere does the article list hydroquinone as an ingredient of the color developer (nor should it!): Try a word search;

3) The MSDS for E-K prebleach lists formalin as an ingredient. Perhaps you were thinking of the older conditioner, which required formaldehyde in the stabilizer bath?

Discpad · Aug 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
More comments:

1. A Ferricyanide bleach will cause excessive dmin in the film without a clearing bath and may hurt the image. E6 films were designed to go through a Ferric EDTA bleach.
{cut}

PE

Do you know if the Tetenal 3 bath kit uses a ferric EDTA bleach(-fix)?

Photo Engineer · Aug 20, 2007

Sorry Dan. I meant first developer. My error. The first developer does not contain HQ. It is a no-no. Crossover, bad color, bad grain, bad sharpness etc..... Whatever. HQ is not used in the first developer. Also, AFAIK, an ingredient is missing now that I look it over again.

My bottle of prebleach does not list formalin. It lists a proprietary thiol which is an R-SH containing organic compound.

IDK what Tetenal uses. I only know that use of ferricyanide after a color developer without a clear will cause a pink dmin due to the oxidation of color developer. You have to use a clearing bath to neutralize the color developer and bring the pH down to a safe level.

PE

patrickjames · Aug 21, 2007

Why don't you post it here instead? Seems like a huge waste of time to do it there when some schmuck can change it, or at least that is what I understand about Wikipedia. I never use it for this reason. Seems there are many things that are inaccurate and manipulated from what I have read.

Patrick

srs5694 · Aug 21, 2007

Concerning the DIY formulas, they seem to originate (or at least are also reported) here. In fact, this is the only DIY E-6 formula I've ever encountered on the Web. I mention this mainly so you can add a reference. PE has commented on this formula's deficiencies here on APUG in the past.

Discpad · Aug 21, 2007

srs5694 said:
Concerning the DIY formulas, they seem to originate (or at least are also reported) here. In fact, this is the only DIY E-6 formula I've ever encountered on the Web. I mention this mainly so you can add a reference. PE has commented on this formula's deficiencies here on APUG in the past.

Yeah, I've seen the Watkins formula in the past... And it's not even a 3 step, as it was listed when I inherited the page (and I left that way).

Discpad · Aug 21, 2007

Re-worked the page

srs5694 said:
Concerning the DIY formulas, they seem to originate (or at least are also reported) here. In fact, this is the only DIY E-6 formula I've ever encountered on the Web. I mention this mainly so you can add a reference. PE has commented on this formula's deficiencies here on APUG in the past.

OK gang, based on the great suggestions so far, I reworked the sections on the page containing the Watkins chrome brew formula; and also moved the three step process hack to the bottom of the page.

PE: I need to dig up the MSDS for the first dev, yada yada yada. As I remember it, I mentioned over on Photo.Net that it was a(n) MQ developer, you corrected me, and I looked it up.

Thanks for the help!

Photo Engineer · Aug 21, 2007

Dan;

The first developer is a High Acutance developer with 2 developing agents and an additional ingredient not commonly listed. The developer is slow acting and very stable. It develops the many layers in E6 films just perfectly to prevent crossover and gives good dmin and dmax in both silver and dye. The developer you list can go awry. It is a very old formula which was corrected in Darkroom Techniques in the 90s. That formula, I think by Dignan, was the most correct I've seen.

If you use a ferricyanide bleach, you must use a sulfite - acetic acid stop bath after the color developer and a good long wash to remove any color developer and acidify the film. This is called the clearing bath.

My E6 bleach contains Ferric Nitrate IIRC. You might want to look this up as well.

The pre-bleach also contains acetic acid and EDTA according to the MSDS.

The stabilzer, final rinse is a proprietary chemical as well.

PE

Discpad · Aug 21, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Dan;

The first developer is a High Acutance developer with 2 developing agents and an additional ingredient not commonly listed. ...The developer you list can go awry. It is a very old formula which was corrected in Darkroom Techniques in the 90s. That formula, I think by Dignan, was the most correct I've seen.

PE

The developer I list? Do you mean the Watkins developer?

I'm coming very close to wiping out the entire home-brew section of the article, anyway.

dmr · Aug 22, 2007

Discpad said:
I'm coming very close to wiping out the entire home-brew section of the article, anyway.

Please leave it in, even with a disclaimer that it may not be ideal.

I read the article and the ingredients and such were quite interesting, even though I'm not a photo chemist by any means.

Thanks for putting this in there.

About the only thing I would like to see in there is a bit more on how the "magic" of the CD3 works. Not as detailed as chemical equations and such, just some narrative on how the dye forming works.

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2007

Discpad said:
The developer I list? Do you mean the Watkins developer?

I'm coming very close to wiping out the entire home-brew section of the article, anyway.

Dan;

The real E6 first developer is what I describe, not yours. Yours is incorrect.

Yours will be a good developer, but not for all E6 films and not for all characteristics due to the lack of one correct developing agent and an added ingredient for image structure.

AFAIK, the correct formula was published one time by Pat Dignan in Darkroom Techniques in the 90s.

PE

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

The BJP annual I have has different formulas. No idea if they're better/worse then the Watkins.

Discpad · Aug 23, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
The BJP annual I have has different formulas. No idea if they're better/worse then the Watkins.

Could you please post them here for comment?

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

First Developer pH 9.6 +/-0.1

Calgon 2grams
Sodium sulphite anhydrous 15g
Potassium hydroquinone monosulphate pure 15g
Diethylene glycol 20g
Potassium carbonate anhydrous 15g
Phenidone 0.4 g
Sodium thiocyanate 20% solution 8ml
Potassium bromide 1.8 grams
Potassium iodide 1% solution 4ml
water to 1litre

I think the alternate is the Watkins

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

Reversal bath pH 5.8 +/- 0.1

Propionic acid 12ml
Stannous chloride 1.65 g
p-Aminophenol 0.5 g
Sodium hydroxide 4.8 g
BDH calcium complexing agent #4 15ml
water to 1litre

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

Conditioning bath pH6.1

Sodium sulphite anhydrous 10g
EDTA Acid 8 g
Thioglycerol 0.5ml
water to 1litre

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

Bleach pH 5.5-5.7
Potassium nitrate crystalline 30 g
Potassium bromide 110g
EDTA NaFe or NH2Fe Merck 110g
water to 1litre
Note teh nitrate is optional to protect stainless tanks

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

Stabiliser
wetting agent 5.ml [Aerosol OT,anionic or any similar product 10% solution]
Formaldehyde 35-40% 6.ml
water to 1litre

Nick Zentena · Aug 23, 2007

I left out the colour developer and fixer since it seems they haven't generated much discussion.

Discpad · Aug 23, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
First Developer pH 9.6 +/-0.1

Calgon 2grams
Sodium sulphite anhydrous 15g
Potassium hydroquinone monosulphate pure 15g
Diethylene glycol 20g
Potassium carbonate anhydrous 15g
Phenidone 0.4 g
Sodium thiocyanate 20% solution 8ml
Potassium bromide 1.8 grams
Potassium iodide 1% solution 4ml
water to 1litre

I think the alternate is the Watkins

Looks like the active agents are phenidone and hydroquinone...

What sayeth PE?

Discpad · Aug 23, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
Conditioning bath pH6.1

Sodium sulphite anhydrous 10g
EDTA Acid 8 g
Thioglycerol 0.5ml
water to 1litre

I guess this is the old conditioner, instead of the newer pre-bleach -- Especially since the stabilizer you list has formaldehyde.

E-6 Reality Check on Wikipedia

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