E-6 development: Does anyone use less wash cycles for 1 or 2 sheets of MF??

peter k. · Jan 2, 2021

We use a cinestill to heat up wash water and chemicals. It would sure would helpful if we did not have to heat up so much wash water. And yes, tap water would could be used instead, but are developing room, ... is a camper without a water heater. ;-)
Arista requires 7 and Tetenal 5 washes between first developer, second developer and again before Blix,
Understanding the need to thoroughly clear and clean any residue of previous developing stage, to keep contamination out of next developing step, we can understand the need when doing 1 or 2 rolls of 35mm or 120, but for 1 or 2 sheets of MF is it really necessary to do so many washes?

koraks · Jan 3, 2021

Washes between temperature critical steps should be at the required temperature level. Final wash can be colder but prevent large temperature gradients. Good luck; sounds like fun, traveling & photography!

halfaman · Jan 3, 2021

I avoid great temperature changes betwen baths but I am noy very accurate. I use my finger to measure water temperature for washes...

peter k. · Jan 3, 2021

Sorry for the confusion, the temp is controlled by the Cinestill, and is maintained.
The question is because there is less area that the developers and blix can attach themselves to, with just one or two shots of MF, is it necessary to do as many washes?
It would therefore require less water that needed to be brought to correct temp.

AgX · Jan 3, 2021

With "Cinestill" to heat up the water a selfregulated heating-device is meant, similar to the sous-vide kitchen devices.

halfaman · Jan 3, 2021

peter k. said:
Sorry for the confusion, the temp is controlled by the Cinestill, and is maintained.
The question is because there is less area that the developers and blix can attach themselves to, with just one or two shots of MF, is it necessary to do as many washes?
It would therefore require less water that needed to be brought to correct temp.

What are you using to process the sheets? How much volume?

peter k. · Jan 3, 2021

AgX said:
With "Cinestill" to heat up the water a selfregulated heating-device is meant, similar to the sous-vide kitchen devices.

Yes ,, looked at both, but spent a little more money on Cinestil

peter k. · Jan 3, 2021

halfaman said:
What are you using to process the sheets? How much volume?

What we are using now is Arisha E-6 developer, so we mix a quart then divide in half, so in developing using 8 oz around 250 ml for sometimes one somethings 2 MF negs.

halfaman · Jan 3, 2021

Are you using a rotary machine like Jobo or hand inversion?

peter k. · Jan 3, 2021

Just got a used Beselar motor base for agitation, and love it, rather then doing hand inversion.

Rudeofus · Jan 3, 2021

If tempered wash water amount is a pressing concern, you could do the following:

FD step
good wash as recommended by manual
CD step
2 minute immersion in 10 g/l Sodium Metabisulfite
BLIX step
allow film tank to cool down to ambient temperature
wash with water at ambient temperature
final rinse step

This reduces your process to one temperature controlled thorough wash and one tempered clearing bath. Would that work for you?

halfaman · Jan 3, 2021

You have to wash for sure and keep the volume of water per wash, you need a minimum ammount that guarantees the liquid actually touch the film inside. But perhaps you can extend the time per wash and reduce the number of washes after FD and Blix taking into account the small ammount of film inside. For example, just a couple of washes of one minute.

The kind of clearing bath after CD is a very good solution.

peter k. · Jan 3, 2021

Rudeofus said:
Sodium Metabisulfite

Hmmm looked it up
Sodium metabisulfite appears as a white crystalline or powder solid with a slight sulfur odor. Toxic by inhalation . Strongly irritates skin and tissue.
Think will pass on that.

Evidently no one has tried this.. sigh. We could experiment but do not want to ruin the developing chemicals, so guess its full wash procedure as recommended.
Thanks for the replies.

koraks · Jan 4, 2021

peter k. said:
Hmmm looked it up

Did you also notice it's a common food additive...? It's really quite benign - much more so than the developers used in E6 processing.

Rudeofus · Jan 4, 2021

peter k. said:
Hmmm looked it up
Sodium metabisulfite appears as a white crystalline or powder solid with a slight sulfur odor. Toxic by inhalation . Strongly irritates skin and tissue.
Think will pass on that.

This is a very common dark room chemical, and in small to moderate amounts it is mostly harmless! Obviously you treat it with respect and store it in a cool, dry place, just like what you do with all the other chemical products you use. Here is the story: if you dissolve it in water or something acidic, it will release some Sulfur Dioxide, and yes, Sulfur Dioxide is toxic as you know, so don't stick your nose above the liquid level and don't go out of your way to breathe in these fumes. If you are too afraid to store raw chemicals in your place, you could use a mixture of hypo clearing bath and stop bath instead. Let me know, if you want to go that route, and I'd post the full procedure. In terms of toxicity both routes are the same.

Rudeofus · Jan 4, 2021

koraks said:
Did you also notice it's a common food additive...? It's really quite benign - much more so than the developers used in E6 processing.

+1 to that.

To add some flesh to this:

Here is the MSDS for Arista's E-6 kit. Key ohrases are "May cause skin irritation", "Causes severe skin burns and eye damage", "Causes serious eye damage", "Harmful if inhaled" and "Harmful to aquatic life".
You will probably crack out a laugh, if you realize, that Arista's BLIX part C is a concentrated solution of Sodium Metabisulfite, the exact compound you just ran away from.

As always, treat darkroom chemicals with respect. I do believe, that my original recommendation suggested a safe and practical route to avoid two full tempered wash cycles.

peter k. · Jan 4, 2021

Rudeofus said:
You will probably crack out a laugh, if you realize, that Arista's BLIX part C is a concentrated solution of Sodium Metabisulfite, the exact compound you just ran away from.

Yes, NAILED ... with a grimace and a huge smile !!!
Ok redink and round em up posse time.

Rudeofus said:
2 minute immersion in 10 g/l Sodium Metabisulfite

Ok after searching we came up with what we think you are referring to being 10 grams of Photographers Sodium Metabisulfite mixed in 1 what?
Gallon or litter of water?
At the proper developing temp of 108*?

koraks · Jan 4, 2021

10 g/l = 10 grams per liter. The amount isn't very critical. 8g/l would likely work just as well as 30 g/l. Don't err on the low side too much, so 1g/gallon would not be a great idea. And yes, I'd keep this at 108F, but it's not super-critical as blix time and temperature are much less critical than for particularly FD.

Rudeofus · Jan 4, 2021

Ok, the term 10 g/l denotes grams/liter. I am from Central Europe, so liters are my natural habitat. The "l" is the small letter "L", not the number "1".

Now, that you seem to be interested in this thing, allow me to provide you with the details:

After CD step your film is soaked with color developer in strong alkali. This color developer just developed a lot of silver, and the oxidized color developer went on and reacted with dye couplers to form a dye.
If you went directly into bleach or BLIX, the oxidizer would oxidize carry over color developer, which would then also form a dye.#
In Arista's mind set tempered water is cheap and abundant, AND they don't have to ship it with their product, so the obvious choice for them is to require a thorough water wash between CD and BLIX step.
Since Arista's assumptions don't hold in your case, you can chose another option: immerse the CD drenched film in a metabisulfite bath. The bisulfite ions will react with oxidized developer to form sulfonates and effectively prevent it from forming dyes.
In a perfect world you'd add a few milliliters of Formalin solution to this clearing bath, because 1. E-6 film needs it at this point to remain archival, 2. Arista did not include it in their kits and 3. Formalin would also scavenge unreacted dye couplers and thereby make doubly sure, that no extra color coupling can take place after CD step. I recommend you do this, if the simple metabisulfite clearing bath alone is insufficient in preventing dye stain. Yes, I fully expect you to run away scared, once you read the safety data sheets for Formalin. Most E-6 kits contain it and no, we have not died yet.

peter k. · Jan 4, 2021

Rudeofus said:
no, we have not died yet.

Nope, where dying while living
Ok.. sounds good, going to give it a try.. thanks allot.

Rudeofus · Jan 4, 2021

peter k. said:
Nope, where dying while living

I believe PE once posted, that Kodak conducted health checks to compare lab workers to regular folks, and they determined no significant differences.

MattKing · Jan 4, 2021

Rudeofus said:
I believe PE once posted, that Kodak conducted health checks to compare lab workers to regular folks, and they determined no significant differences.

Kodak employees had good pay, really good health benefits and generous vacation allowances. They probably scored better than many "regular" folks.

E-6 development: Does anyone use less wash cycles for 1 or 2 sheets of MF??

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