E-6 Chemical Storage

[Queticon]

I know that oxidation contaminates E-6 Chemicals. Kodak states I belive that chemicals will last at least a month, if oxygen is kept from contaminating the chemicals. Now I know that they make large 5L containers that have a floating lid to keep the chemicals from being oxidized. My question is has anyone ever or would it be possible to use 5L collapsible jugs as a storage container. Where you can push the air out after removing the amount of chemicals you need?

Thank you in advance

 

[srs5694]

How do you intend to use your E-6 -- in a replenished line or one-shot? If you're using it one-shot, then you can buy a gallon or 5-liter or whatever size it is that Kodak sells as its smallest kit and keep it for many months. My last purchase lasted about two years before it started giving me troubles. I kept most of the items in the plastic bottles in which Kodak shipped them, but I transferred the first developer to a glass jar on which I used a vacuum pump. Of course, I can't promise yours would last this long, particularly since I don't know what your standards are -- it's possible that you'd object to small color shifts that I wouldn't even notice, for instance.

FWIW, there's been at least (there was a url link here which no longer exists) on E-6 longevity. (The APUG search function seems to ignore "E6" or "E-6," so I had to find this thread via Google!)

 

[Queticon]

It is a one shot 5L kit. I was going to mix the entire 5-liters. I have read alot of the 3-6 post on longevity and most mention using nitrogen or butane to push the air out before sealing. I was just curious if the collapsible jugs with all the air pushed out would work like the chemicals added to top off the top of the solutions.

Thank you for the link. bery imformative.

 

[2F/2F]

"I was just curious if the collapsible jugs with all the air pushed out would work like the chemicals added to top off the top of the solutions."

Yes, the idea is the same. If the seal is tight, only the small amount of oxygen in the tiny air bubble at the top of the accordion container will oxidize the solutions.

What I do is have a bunch of brown glass bottles of different sizes. I keep them very well labeled. Seven one-gallon bottles and 35 250mL bottles to start (5x250mL per chemical). Each 250mL bottle equals one Jobo batch in my 3010 tank. When I have to refill all 35 250mL bottles, I put marbles into the gallon jugs to take up the air space. A bit of a hassle, but it works. Next time I have to refill all the 250mL bottles, I put the remainder into half-gallon bottles....etc. etc. until all gone. This is such a process that I should get more accordion containers, but they are pricier than the glass ones (and I got the glass ones for free), and I just haven't got around to it yet.

Some solutions may not expire due to oxidation, but due to other chemical reasons. I know from experience, for example, that no matter how air free it is kept, C-41 developer goes south after a certain time. I don't know what E-6 chemicals, if any, behave like that, but you should find out (and so should I, since I use the Kodak Single-Use E-6 kit as well).

 

[Queticon]

Thank you 2F. I had heard mention some where that marbles might be used. I now know that marbles are a viable solution. Thank you for the help.

 

[2F/2F]

It takes a lot of them for the big bottles like I have, and a lot of time getting them back out of the empty bottle. I have a 5 gal. paint bucket almost full of marbles.

If you are starting from scratch, just buy the accordion jugs. Like I said, I got all my glass bottles, and the marbles, for free, so that's what I use.

 

[Queticon]

Ill givr the jugs a shot. thank you.

 

[srs5694]

Why would you mix it all up ahead of time? No matter how you store it, mixing the chemistry well ahead of time will just cause it to go bad faster. I suppose it's easier to do it this way, but IMHO it's not worth the reduced lifespan unless you'll be able to use up all five liters pretty quickly, and your question suggests you won't be.

Concerning the collapsible jugs, opinion is almost universally negative on them. They're awkward and difficult to clean. In addition, they're made from a type of plastic that's partially permeable to air, which defeats the purpose of expelling the air by collapsing the bottles. You're better off using several small glass or air-impermeable plastic bottles, using marbles, using a "blanket" gas, or using a vacuum pump on a glass jar. Check this page for information on different plastics' suitability for storing photochemicals. Note that most manufacturers use HDPE, which isn't the best choice; but the chemicals as shipped are concentrated, which helps a lot. Some items, including many of the E-6 chemicals, ship in multiple bottles that are mixed at time of use, and that helps a lot, too. Some people transfer at least some chemicals from their plastic shipping bottles to glass bottles as soon as they get them. I do this with the E-6 first developer.

 

[2F/2F]

If you won't be processing much, and feel comfortable in your ability to measure out small quantities (a syringe sans hypo needle is what I find works best), by all means, just mix what you need. That is the best way to go. I mix the whole 5L because I hold exposed film until I have enough to make the kit pay for itself at least five times over. Processing at home, you can do much better than 5x$50 savings (especially with sheet film!!!), but that's my cutoff. I don't mind holding my film. If I am in a rush, that means I am getting paid anyhow, so lab fees are no problem as they can be passed along, and the responsibility for processing errors is out of my hands. I get small (crummy) jobs all the time come Winter time shooting portfolios for Spring art school applicants, but other than that, no one wants transparencies anyhow for commercial work, so I can wait.

 

[Queticon]

Thats is why I waited to use them. I was trying to find the most economical way to use the kits. I changed tanks and the new tanks require at least 535ml of solution to cover 120/220. Well this is a very odd ball size, so I figured I could get more out of the kits if I mixed the entire 5L. I was trying to save money and not get the name brand containers.

*Fills the containers with colored cement and places them in yard as lawn ornaments*

I guess I will go back to mixing as I need. If I mix 550ml of soultions. Can I only put 1 roll through and then throw away? I have read several of the kodak pdf's and one says one time shot and throw away, but when you read in another place it says you can put almost 18 rolls of 120/220 film through, by increasing the developer time and the bleach time on the second use. Is this correct or am I readin it wrong?

 

[Donsta]

Get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Wine-Saver-Argon-Saving/dp/B000O3GA5C (there are many of these devices out there - this just happens to be the kind I bought) - very easy solution for dispensing a layer of inert argon onto concentrates in unsealed bottles.

 

[Queticon]

See, I did not know there was a nifty little device like that. I knew I could go to a welding supply store and buy a big tank of argon, which I did not want to do. That right there is a nifty little gadget. Thank you

 

[srs5694]

I guess I will go back to mixing as I need. If I mix 550ml of soultions. Can I only put 1 roll through and then throw away? I have read several of the kodak pdf's and one says one time shot and throw away, but when you read in another place it says you can put almost 18 rolls of 120/220 film through, by increasing the developer time and the bleach time on the second use. Is this correct or am I readin it wrong?

I doubt if you'd get good results passing 18 rolls of film through (sequentially) enough solution to cover just one roll. The third-party kits often assume re-using the solutions for two to four rolls. Kodak's official instructions for the 5-liter kit say to use it single-shot, as you say. I'd speculate that it might be possible to re-use once or twice, but I've never tried doing so. Even with single-shot processing and throwing away half the kit because of waste, the 5-liter kit will process ten rolls of 35mm film, which is about $5/roll. This is in the same ballpark as the third-party kits with re-use. (For MF, the math might work out a bit different, depending on how you do it, but the principles are the same.) If you do enough to go through a whole kit before it goes bad (about 20 rolls of 35mm), the cost drops to $2.50/roll.

You might want to simply try re-using it to see how it works. Of course, each re-use will be a risk at first, but that's the only way to really be sure it will (or won't) work well enough for your purposes.

 

[Queticon]

sorry I should of been more specific. 18 rolls was for the 5L kit not the single mixed solution for one roll.

 

[Aurum]

See, I did not know there was a nifty little device like that. I knew I could go to a welding supply store and buy a big tank of argon, which I did not want to do. That right there is a nifty little gadget. Thank you

You can get small disposable tanks for MIG welders for around £10 in the UK (Whats that 20 bucks? ). from any tool shop that sells small welders.
With a simple on/off regulator for say another £5 thats you sorted for gas for years. The tanks are about 12" long, 3-4" in diameter, not big in the grand scheme of things

 

[Queticon]

Ill have to check the next time I am at the welding supply store. thank you.

 

[srs5694]

sorry I should of been more specific. 18 rolls was for the 5L kit not the single mixed solution for one roll.

Oh, OK. That makes perfect sense. I use a stainless steel tank and fill it with 250ml of solution per 35mm roll. Assuming no waste, that works out to 20 rolls from 5 liters of solution. You'd get slightly fewer rolls with tanks that require more volume. It looks like Kodak's assuming 275ml per roll (well, 277.777... ml, to be precise). I don't know what the minimum solution volume per square centimeter of film is.

 

[Rob Landry]

Freeze 'em

- Mix the full 5L kit the 1st time you process

- seperate into plastic water bottles (I use 500ml bottles)

- place in freezer

- done

Read this thread if you'd like more info:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[nworth]

The E-6 stock solutions that you get in the kit are fantastically stable, and Kodak supplies a table (usually on the box) that tells you how to mix up less than full lot quantities. Just mix what you need for the session or for the next few days. The opened stock solutions will keep for months.

 

[kenkuro]

I use Dust-Off for preserving developer and half finished wine.
You do not displace the whole air in the bottle. One small shot is enough because the gas is heavier than the air and comfortably snug itself between the air and the liquid interface. If you have any doubt, try this. Preparer a couple of glass, fill both half way up with say Dektol, give a small shot in one of them and leave it several days. Leave it uncovered and see what happens.

I also use it into a developing tray. Agitating the tray seems not inter fare with the gas as long as you don't splash around. Works like magic.

By the way, don't inhale this stuff, some kids do that to get high and kill themselves. Being heavier than the air makes it difficult to exhale.

Ken