E-6 and C-41: Maintaining Wash Water Temperature

focus_on_infinity · Oct 11, 2020

In troubleshooting a recent issue, I determined that my problem was most likely due to rinsing with water that was too hot. My water bath isn't really big enough to heat enough water for rinsing. I could get another sous vide and stick it in a 5 gal bucket, and that would probably be the most direct answer. What methods are you using to for getting enough water of sufficient temperature for washing?

Donald Qualls · Oct 11, 2020

I've done my C-41 wash with cold tap water (60+ F) and final rinse at room temp (around 67F that day), seems to be fine. What I did in my last batch of C-41 was adjust the hot and cold taps to feel close to the tempering bath. Doesn't need to be exact.

If hot water tank capacity is the major issue, don't bother with another sous vide, just fill that bucket with tap water adjusted to roughly right, and do an Ilford wash from it. Fill, invert 5 times, dump. Fill, invert 10 times, dump. Fill, invert 20 times (optionally let stand a while, not needed but won't do any harm) and dump before final rinse. This method is so water-efficient I've used grocery store distilled water for the entire wash without pain (a half liter tank fill for 120 in a Paterson will wind up using just two liters, including the final rinse). Could just stand a jug in your tempering bath alongside your process chemicals, too.

focus_on_infinity · Oct 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I've done my C-41 wash with cold tap water (60+ F) and final rinse at room temp (around 67F that day), seems to be fine. What I did in my last batch of C-41 was adjust the hot and cold taps to feel close to the tempering bath. Doesn't need to be exact.

If hot water tank capacity is the major issue, don't bother with another sous vide, just fill that bucket with tap water adjusted to roughly right, and do an Ilford wash from it. Fill, invert 5 times, dump. Fill, invert 10 times, dump. Fill, invert 20 times (optionally let stand a while, not needed but won't do any harm) and dump before final rinse. This method is so water-efficient I've used grocery store distilled water for the entire wash without pain (a half liter tank fill for 120 in a Paterson will wind up using just two liters, including the final rinse). Could just stand a jug in your tempering bath alongside your process chemicals, too.

Yeah, that was my next question, which was how sensitive the wash temperature really is. It's a wash and not a chemical process, so it would make sense that it's not as sensitive. But, not being a chemist, I don't really know. Also, I was wondering if the intermediate washes are equally temperature sensitive.

I was thinking of just finger testing and putting a bucket in a styrofoam container that I happen to have lying about. I've measured that beakers drop about .5-.6F/minute at around 100F, so the bucket and foam should be better. If a few degrees doesn't matter, then that could be a solution.

Donald Qualls · Oct 11, 2020

Generally, where you have trouble with temperature swings is big changes, cold to hot. Taking film from room temperature to C-41 temp of 38C has a risk of inducing reticulation (less of a problem with films designed for 38C development than for 1960s vintage B&W, however, because the gelatin is harder). Going the other way, hot to cold, isn't generally a big deal. One way around is to use a tank full of the tempering water for the post-bleach wash, and cold tap water for the post-fixing wash, then keep your final rinse at room temperature (so you're not going from cold tap back up to 38C).

Canonically, Kodak's instructions indicate that only the color developer (for C-41) is highly temperature critical, and experience says it isn't as critical as Kodak's documents claim. Following baths can vary by successively larger ranges of temperature.

thuggins · Oct 11, 2020

I do the first, second and third wash from the water bath. The second and third are an Ilford wash so it uses a half gallon of water. The bath gets refilled after the second wash, I don't bother after the third. Get an infrared thermometer; they are only about 10 bucks. This will let you adjust the water from the faucet to the right temperature.

koraks · Oct 12, 2020

focus_on_infinity said:
how sensitive the wash temperature really is.

Not much. I'd stay within the range of "lukewarm" to prevent large temperature swings and to maintain effectiveness (warmer water washes better, simply put). But washing with water of say 30C would be just fine. C41 datasheets confirm this btw.

Odds are whatever problem you have is caused by something else. What's the problem exactly?

Вormental_old · Oct 12, 2020

Kodak'z Z-131 document recommends wash temperature within 75-100F. That's wide enough range to feel by hand! I just adjust running water's temp by feel, trying to be on the warmer side, around 100F, then pour into a 5L beaker and put it aside. It probably cools down by 10-15F by the time I use it, but that's fine.

fs999 · Oct 12, 2020

I use a sans-air water heater, which keeps the rinse water at 38°C exactly.

Buzz-01 · Oct 12, 2020

I only develop one roll of C-41 at a time and I heat up my chemicals "au bain marie" in a large bucket, starting with 12L of tap water at ~ 45°C.
I put a lid on the bucket to keep the heat inside and when the water temperature is at 40°C, my chemicals have usually heated up to the correct temperature and I'm ready for action.
Using the Ilford washing method for B&W and adding one extra wash (making it 5, 10, 20, 20 inversions) with fresh water from the bucket, I get good results every time.
Currently I don't use stab, just a final wash with demi water and a drop of photoflo or dishwashing soap.

Probably not the preferred method for many people, but it works for me!

focus_on_infinity · Oct 12, 2020

koraks said:
Not much. I'd stay within the range of "lukewarm" to prevent large temperature swings and to maintain effectiveness (warmer water washes better, simply put). But washing with water of say 30C would be just fine. C41 datasheets confirm this btw.

Odds are whatever problem you have is caused by something else. What's the problem exactly?

I'm pretty sure it was the wash temperature. At least, that's the first thing I'll try to correct. This was a batch of E-6, and it came out reddish overall. It wasn't Kodak chemicals or E100, but this doc https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/z119-12.pdf indicates that's likely caused by the first-wash temperature being too high, and I'm pretty sure that my first wash temperature probably was too high. I had done a previous batch where I didn't have that issue, and my wash temperature was probably lower that time.

koraks · Oct 12, 2020

As you can see in that document there's quite a number of possible causes listed for a red cast - even more if it is actually magenta or orange (sometimes it's a little hard to tell). Frankly the wash would be about the last thing I'd check. The first things would be the first developer and the color developer. Particularly the first developer is critical, and finicky.

focus_on_infinity · Oct 12, 2020

koraks said:
As you can see in that document there's quite a number of possible causes listed for a red cast - even more if it is actually magenta or orange (sometimes it's a little hard to tell). Frankly the wash would be about the last thing I'd check. The first things would be the first developer and the color developer. Particularly the first developer is critical, and finicky.

True, but the development and chemical temperatures were well controlled in the water bath. It's pretty fresh chemistry, both in terms of time and usage. It had just produced a couple of nice rolls, so I'm pretty confident that the mixing of it was all correct. I'd be surprised if there were any contamination at this point. The wild card here was the wash temp, which is why I find it suspect.

focus_on_infinity · Oct 13, 2020

koraks said:
As you can see in that document there's quite a number of possible causes listed for a red cast - even more if it is actually magenta or orange (sometimes it's a little hard to tell). Frankly the wash would be about the last thing I'd check. The first things would be the first developer and the color developer. Particularly the first developer is critical, and finicky.

Hmmm. I think you may be right. Now I'm thinking it may have just been my lighting. I shot two more last night, and developed them alongside one from the previous shoot. I was experimenting with lighting, and although last night was fairly underexposed, they didn't have the same red cast, although the previous nights did. I must have had enough room lighting on before to get that tungsten orange on the daylight film.

Either way, back to square one, and control the whole thing all the way through.

E-6 and C-41: Maintaining Wash Water Temperature

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E-6 and C-41: Maintaining Wash Water Temperature

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