Dye-Imbibition (dye-transfer) & Carbon printing

holmburgers said:

Jerevan, those are all for monochrome carbon. Unfortunately they're not suitable for tri-color, in which case we'd need the printing primaries.

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I should have read more carefully. Best of luck and hope we'll see some fine tri-colors in the future!

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

This process interests me with capability of carrying more ink and more tones with three dimensional gelatin.

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The ultimate in gelatin-relief processes is probably the Woodburytye: 500 + kg /cm2 of pressure to impress the gelatin relief into lead, which is then filled with a coloured gelatin. Needless to say, Woodburytype is not a simple "try this at home" process

Thank you Ian , I never had heard such a technology. Do you know how gelatin keeps its shape under pressure ? I think it is doable for small prints , may be 6x6. Water pressure is safer than the gas pressure and it could be created by hand cranck.

The definitive text on this was written by Barrett Oliver: http://www.carlmautz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=83

PE

Thank you Ron , I read that some artisans were creating such molds by handcarving porcelain clay by predicting 3D shape from the flat picture. Well , do you know Elisabeth 2 relief on postal stamps ? It sold as huge art success but these people were doing this everyday of their life.

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

Thank you Ian , I never had heard such a technology. Do you know how gelatin keeps its shape under pressure ? I think it is doable for small prints , may be 6x6. Water pressure is safer than the gas pressure and it could be created by hand cranck.

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Gelatin is actually very tough material when hardened, only the finest details being 'crushed' in the Woodbury process. There were a few Woodbury's showing at the National Gallery of Canada recently - they are beautiful, and unlike any other process.

Most Woodburytypes produced were not large due to the extreme pressures and equipment involved - the American Photo Relief Co. (John Carbutt) did manage to produce 40 x50 cm prints. The 'stannotype', an electrotype variant of the Woodbury that did not require high pressures was introduced in 1879.

Credit where it's due - I'm taking this from Luis Nadeau's Encylopedia of Printing, Photographic and Photomechanical Processes.

I have an idea , I think photopolymers are widely available from rapid prototyping companies or chemical companies..
Take stereo pictures and send it via e mail to an indian hologram company.
Let them enlarge it and create a hologram.
Get your hologram from UPS and make a 1 centimeter thick rapid prototyping acrylic and porcelain powder mix.
Put your hologram top of pool and expose with uv.
Hologram will cast a 3D print in to your mix and harden it.
Remove the hardened acrylic and powder mix and wash with a chemical.
Than put in to a oxygen reduction furnace and burn the acrylic.
Acrylic burnt out and porcelain hardened.
Fill the holes inside of porcelain with a enamel paint.
You get 3 D scene from porcelain.

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

I have an idea , I think photopolymers are widely available from rapid prototyping companies or chemical companies..
Take stereo pictures and send it via e mail to an indian hologram company.
Let them enlarge it and create a hologram.
Get your hologram from UPS and make a 1 centimeter thick rapid prototyping acrylic and porcelain powder mix.
Put your hologram top of pool and expose with uv.
Hologram will cast a 3D print in to your mix and harden it.
Remove the hardened acrylic and powder mix and wash with a chemical.
Than put in to a oxygen reduction furnace and burn the acrylic.
Acrylic burnt out and porcelain hardened.
Fill the holes inside of porcelain with a enamel paint.
You get 3 D scene from porcelain.

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This sounds very interesting.

Is there any history of someone trying this?

Michael , Its my 35th hour that I did not sleep but let me try to help you.
Rapid prototyping , or better term , stereo lithography with acrylic and ceramic mix is not a new idea.
Its patented by material matrix cast composites from england.
This is a F1 technology and they produce liners with this technology.
Liners are sleeves inside of a engine block and ceramic increase the life with hard nature.
This was the number one technology until f1 switches to linerless engines.
I think there are more options.
There are camera cinema lists like 3dcml or something like it and they talk about converting old films to 3D.
If you be a member of this list and ask a company who do it and ask to the company what was the requirements of this technology , you can prepare yourself for them to create a series of photographs converted to 3D.
I dont know what was the file format but ask them to prepare you a file to be converted to sla format as rapid prototyping stereo lithography machines could print.
Lots of details cost money and time of the sla rp machine.
When you get the 3d plastic print , you go to a paint shop effect shop and coat with cream enamel and get a marble porcelain finish. You could lose details.
It sounds simple but you must calibrate everything for everything.
3d systems can print 3d with metal also , or ceramic metal matrix.
Call them.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

I have an idea , I think photopolymers are widely available from rapid prototyping companies or chemical companies..
Take stereo pictures and send it via e mail to an indian hologram company.
Let them enlarge it and create a hologram.
Get your hologram from UPS and make a 1 centimeter thick rapid prototyping acrylic and porcelain powder mix.
Put your hologram top of pool and expose with uv.
Hologram will cast a 3D print in to your mix and harden it.
Remove the hardened acrylic and powder mix and wash with a chemical.
Than put in to a oxygen reduction furnace and burn the acrylic.
Acrylic burnt out and porcelain hardened.
Fill the holes inside of porcelain with a enamel paint.
You get 3 D scene from porcelain.

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Well, it would be nice if it worked...

In practice, you'll encounter a bunch of problems like:
- Reconstruction wavelength for the hologram and recording wavelength for the photopolymer may not match (the UV you use to polymerize your acrylic prototyping acrylic resin won't necessarily reconstruct a holographic image at all).

- Adding porcelain powder to the acrylic resin won't make it particularly transparent to the recording light - hence it will prevent the resin from polymerizing.

- In order to polymerize your acrylic stuff with the radiation from the reconstructed hologram, the hologram needs to form a real image (in optical terms and not a virtual one) at some distance from the holographic plate/film.

Hologram,

What kind of hologram do this ?

What is the scientific name of it ?

I had been contacted more than 70 hologram studio for hologram lens construction but now I know , I have to collect more information to be successful.

May be transmission holograms ?

Yes , You are right , porcelain powder needs to be used at layer stuff not mass stuff.

What is the way to construct 3D hologram from single or more photographs ? Is there a software for it ?
How film people convert 2D to 3D , I am talking about old films .

I think ;

- learning the requirements to construct 3D from 2D ,- without using xyz pictures for modeling software-
- than carrying this file to modeling software
- than creating a cnc of foam
- and than cast your bronze 3D composition

is really exciting.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

Hologram,

What kind of hologram do this ?

What is the scientific name of it ?

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You mean the holograms made by that company from India you mentioned (do you have a link)? Assuming they have do make white-light viewable holograms, that would be a reflection or a special kind of transmission ("rainbow") hologram - see http://www.holowiki.com/index.php/Holograms. I guess they'd have to form some kind of CGH (computer generated hologram) in order to get beyond the extremely restricted viewing angle provided by simple stereo photography.

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

I had been contacted more than 70 hologram studio for hologram lens construction but now I know , I have to collect more information to be successful.

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What do you want to do with a HOE (holographic optical element)?

Some thoughts...

So despite the lack of posts, this project is moving ahead.

Dye-imbition
I'm in the process of getting a hold of suitable dyes to use. There are many appropriate acid dyes out there, but their availability is another question. I've bought some WashFast Acid textiles dye, magenta, and it appears to be a reasonable magenta; though I have no way of knowing yet. Anyways, the key is to get a matrix, a.k.a. an unpigmented carbon tissue on a reliable support (fixed out lith film for instance). This process resembles the pinatype process, which is just like carbon printing, except there is no hot water etch and no pigment in the glop. After exposure and a wash, there are two types of gelatin, unhardened and hardened. Then, you soak the dyes in a mild acetic acid solution with the matrix, the dye will imbibe in the matrix in the unhardened area (thus, you need a positive to contact print). The matrix is then rolled onto a paper support (fixed out b&w paper should be suitable for testing, a mordant of copper sulfate or whatever the dye-transfer folks use should be suitable) and left to transfer its dye to the paper. Once a set of dyes are found, this process should be quite doable for anyone who can make a decent carbon tissue. JS Friedman lists a number of textile dyes that are suitable; so it can be done with fabric dyes, in theory at least. They are cheap and a little goes a long way.

Color Carbon
I've been thinking less about this lately, but it's an equally exciting process for amazing and completely archival color photographs. The proper pigments are yet to be determined (by me at least). The key is 3 transparent pigments; and contrary to what I stated above, just printing the most opaque on the bottom isn't necessarily going to work, as it must be transparent enough to show the white paper through so you get some kind of continuous tone. People over at the Bostick & Sullivan Carbon forum have some experience in this and would be a good resource.

But to me, these processes solidify color analog prints far into the future, after all Cibachrome and RA-4 papers are discontinued (god forbid). The materials are cheap, readily available and nothing is necessarily "photography" specific. Gelatin, paper, potassium dichromate, pigments, etc.

Anyways, here's what I see as the necessary steps to making these processes viable:

For carbon prints... pigments and a reliable registration method. That's it. If some carbon printer out there wants to start testing different pigents/inks in monochrome, as soon as you can make a reasonable print in each color that is continuous in tone, then all you have to do is layer the 3.

For dye-imbition... suitable dyes. Duh. More specifics to follow, but a dye that will imbibe into a matrix in a solution of diluted acetic acid, and then transfer to a paper.

Another modification would be a carbon method where the gelatin layers are dyed as opposed to impregnanted with pigment. Then, you could theoretically use the same dyes for a carbon print and a dye-transfer print. The questions would be how to mordant (make stick) the dyes to the gelatin, but if you make gelatin with food dyes and let it dry, the dye doesn't go anywhere, as I've tested. So it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to just make dyed gelatin tissues. Something to think about.

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Chris ,

Some textile dyes are cancerenogic , allergic , harm the lungs and many more.
Before experimenting them by chance factor , research their health factor.
I think someone can guide you to select them after reading goverment tests.

Umut

Well potassium dichromate isn't all that friendly either...

I have a very experienced indivudal who I'm corresponding wtih regarding dyes suitable for imbition. I'll post once I get his permission and/or figure out the best ones and where to get them.

When I'm playing with dyes, I'm wearing goggles, dust mask and gloves. Don't you worry about me...

By the way, many dyes are available on eBay. Many histological stains and what not...

holmburgers said:

So despite the lack of posts, this project is moving ahead.


Color Carbon
I've been thinking less about this lately, but it's an equally exciting process for amazing and completely archival color photographs. ...
BREAK!

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Luis Nadeau covers this whole process in detail in his books on carbon printing.
Word is, it is a process for martyrs only -- not that such things stop me!
High quality yellow pigment tends to be opaque, which presents some challenges; the cyan glop requires very careful formulation to achieve the correct contrast/density.

Thanks Ian, I will look into it. Which book are you referring to?

I'm trying to get a copy of Viscount Hanworth's (David Bertram Pollock) 'Amateur Carbon Prints', but it's hard to find.

I've always wanted to be a martyr!, plus, I've got time... like the rest of my life.. to figure this out.

Hey , You will be the President of United States at your Senior age ! Do you aware of it ? May be You dye your clothes to purple with finding the original mollusk dye at ebay.
We call you Emperor Great Holmburgersius

Now that would be a cool dye to use....

fyi, I saw these recent large Carbro prints and they were stunning.

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Don't know if there is additional info to gleen regarding their process.

Awesome, thanks for the link. How would you describe them?

Turns out that fixed out lith film might not be the best bet due to the presence of gelatin which, although a suitable subbing layer, might interact with the dyes. This is what one would need: http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-964/ESTAR-MELENEX/Detail.bok

How would you describe them?

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Compared to other Carbro's I've seen at the Eastman house these "seemed" to be printed on a matt paper, the only gloss coming from the layers of pigment. They were also quite large, maybe 30x40.

http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/895-color-carbon/

These folks are DOING IT. Carbon that is... and B&S might have it on the market soon. I guess the rumours are true.

holmburgers said:

Thanks Ian, I will look into it. Which book are you referring to?

I'm trying to get a copy of Viscount Hanworth's (David Bertram Pollock) 'Amateur Carbon Prints', but it's hard to find.

I've always wanted to be a martyr!, plus, I've got time... like the rest of my life.. to figure this out.

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"History and Practice of Carbon Processes" is a veritable tome of information. I believe it is out of print One of his other books "Modern Carbon Printing" may cover colour, I'll have to look it up and get back to you.

I've seen some of Luis Nadeau's work, and it is AMAZING: accurate vivid colour, massive relief, and a wonderful 'wet' look.