Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why you're not as good a photographer as you think you are

Kino · Jul 31, 2018

So to sum it up; You may or may not think you are a good photographer if you have technical skills (or not), depending upon your level of experience (or lack thereof), but you're probably wrong (or self-effacing), and your crappy snaps might have more historical/social value in the future than highly polished, technically proficient works, but then again maybe not.

Glad we cleared that up...

Now, if my dog shot Kodachrome, should he use a Hassy or a Deardorf and would this cause an existential crisis in my cat, or would she just use her Olympus XA with expired Ektachrome and cross process it to document his overbearing hubris?

Cholentpot · Jul 31, 2018

bobsteele said:
I shoot manhole covers (personhole covers?) for much the same reason.

Electric poles help me align my lenses if needed. Useful for anamorphic.

All the peoplehole covers here say something like 'Jordan' no carp.

warden · Jul 31, 2018

mooseontheloose said:
...
Here's a snapshot of one my favourite manhole covers in Hiroshima (the Carp are the baseball team there).

That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing it!

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2018

jtk said:
"Have you ever noticed that as you learn more about the world of photography, you tend to realize just how little you actually know?"

Being a good photographer has almost nothing to do with how much "you actually know."

I disagree with this, I think the more you actually know about a subject matter makes you a better photographer. google House Calls a NFB documentary and see how having a in depth knowledge of a subject is advantageous... Spoiler Alert, my hands start the movie, this body of work hung in the ROM for 14 months and 1.8 million viewers saw the show.

Ko.Fe. · Jul 31, 2018

Good, because it short , article in OP link. With absolutely nothing new in it. I have seen old time photogs with publishing, titles and teaching, but they are nothing special. Yet, full of it.
Digital is not as evil as some trying to blame here and where. In film time only it was even worse. Because it was difficult on film. And it was a lot more of routine, like processing and duplicating. So, it was plenty of technicians, not photographers.

But I'm not looking on Flickr as an example of great photographers. It is more like World Geographic to me.
To remind how good photography looks like I have books at home, with pictures taken by film only time masters.
Go figure

Cholentpot · Jul 31, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
I disagree with this, I think the more you actually know about a subject matter makes you a better photographer. google House Calls a NFB documentary and see how having a in depth knowledge of a subject is advantageous... Spoiler Alert, my hands start the movie, this body of work hung in the ROM for 14 months and 1.8 million viewers saw the show.

I don't have any formal training whatsoever in photography or art. Everything I picked up along the way.

I think it goes without saying that having knowledge of the subject will net you a better photo. If that's what you are saying. I can take photos of apples but if I spent a season working in an orchard my photos will reflect that.

I see it this way, if someone knows the bare-bones of photography - aperture, shutter speed, iso - and basic composition the rest is creativity. If the photographer is worth anything they'll pick up tips and tricks along the way.

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2018

Yes , I can take a good picture of an apple , but if I worked months in an apple orchard I would be able to tell a story about apples. Most of the projects that I like are long story's about something that interests the photographer and their intimate knowledge.

Sirius Glass · Jul 31, 2018

Cholentpot said:
Electric poles help me align my lenses if needed. Useful for anamorphic.

All the peoplehole covers here say something like 'Jordan' no carp.

Cross hairs on the view screen help for trees, buildings and the horizon.

Julie McLeod · Jul 31, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
I disagree with this, I think the more you actually know about a subject matter makes you a better photographer. google House Calls a NFB documentary and see how having a in depth knowledge of a subject is advantageous... Spoiler Alert, my hands start the movie, this body of work hung in the ROM for 14 months and 1.8 million viewers saw the show.

Bob, thanks for pointing out that documentary...it was really worthwhile viewing and I enjoyed seeing the images come to life in your hands. I agree that raising awareness of the plight of house bound seniors wouldn't have been as effective with Dr. Nowaczynski's intimate connection to his patients.

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2018

Julie McLeod said:
Bob, thanks for pointing out that documentary...it was really worthwhile viewing and I enjoyed seeing the images come to life in your hands. I agree that raising awareness of the plight of house bound seniors wouldn't have been as effective with Dr. Nowaczynski's intimate connection to his patients.

Thanks Julie - I think House Calls clearly describes my point , he is now doing the second part of House Calls where he documents his team in place, this too will be a major show and I weekly encourage him to proceed with the work.

I also would point to Shelby Lee Adams life work , and how he is one of the community , every year without fail he spends a couple of months revisiting the hollers, this goes back generations.
Probably the finest photo books I have ever read is Larry Towell"s Mennonite series. I know Larry and I know the farm region he lives in for his whole adult life with his family, right smack dab in the middle of Mennonite farms.. His book is one of the most beautiful photo essays of all time IMHO.

Phototgraph what you know and understand , you cannot go wrong.

jtk · Jul 31, 2018

Arklatexian said:
Why limit that to Kodak R&D? The whole photo industry was financed by them. Not so much any more, I think. The crappy snapshots are still being made but with the advent of non-film photography, the "industry" mostly died in the USA. and probably the rest of the world. It would be completely dead in the world today were it not for people in groups like this and for the natural curiosity of young people about "film".

1) Agfa financed important parts of the "photo industry" ...thinking especially of Agfachrome slides and Brovira etc (way-better than typical Kodak B&W paper).
2) Hardly any "young people" are interested in "film." They're mostly into digital photos and related online venues. See the wonderful work done by teens.
3) Photrio serves a tiny minority of photographers .. Kinda' obvious. If you mostly shoot a DSLR, as most serious photographers do, you prefer other sites (I shoot film AND digital, print inkjet). I like the B&W work, displayed digitally, of a few of Photrio's contributors.

Alan Edward Klein · Jul 31, 2018

Success has to do a lot, with fear or should I say lack of it. Ever notice how a immigrant comes to America the land of opportunity? He barely speaks English yet works hard and becomes a success not realizing how impossible it was suppose to be. Meanwhile, the native born American looks at all the problems, risks, difficulties, and impossibilities, and hardly tries if at all. It's an inside job.

jtk · Jul 31, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
I disagree with this, I think the more you actually know about a subject matter makes you a better photographer. google House Calls a NFB documentary and see how having a in depth knowledge of a subject is advantageous... Spoiler Alert, my hands start the movie, this body of work hung in the ROM for 14 months and 1.8 million viewers saw the show.

Knowing a lot about subject matter can be important and knowing a lot of photo technique can be important.

Being an expert in photo technique is far less important than being basically competent.

Being curious about subject is far more important than being an expert.

I doubt Edward Weston could have told us how to make dye transfer prints (hardly anybody on Photrio could do that) or how to have drive Cadillacs in the Sierras, (like Ansel did). I don't think Edward Weston was an expert about naked women but he was curious about them and that evidently paid off. Ansel evidently lacked that curiosity.

Curiosity isn't the same as intelligence, but it comes close.

Julie McLeod · Jul 31, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Thanks Julie - I think House Calls clearly describes my point , he is now doing the second part of House Calls where he documents his team in place, this too will be a major show and I weekly encourage him to proceed with the work.

I also would point to Shelby Lee Adams life work , and how he is one of the community , every year without fail he spends a couple of months revisiting the hollers, this goes back generations.
Probably the finest photo books I have ever read is Larry Towell"s Mennonite series. I know Larry and I know the farm region he lives in for his whole adult life with his family, right smack dab in the middle of Mennonite farms.. His book is one of the most beautiful photo essays of all time IMHO.

Phototgraph what you know and understand , you cannot go wrong.

After viewing the documentary, I looked the doctor up to see what he is doing after 14 years and see that he has a practice set up exactly for this purpose. I suppose he was persuasive in getting OHIP's house call payment system changed if he was able to dedicate a practice to the work. Glad to know he's got a follow up project planned. I appreciate the other suggestions too and will seek them out.

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2018

Yes his practice is now funny enough called House Calls and is aligned with Mt Sinai and EMS in Toronto.

I think there are now 5 dedicated doctors on his team , Nurse practitioners, Social workers, and Physiotherapists
They do get Govt funding and Sprint Canada provides a base for them to meet and work out of, He does house calls everyday and you have to be over 75 to get on his program, I will be grandfathered into the program at some point with my wife.

Cholentpot · Jul 31, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Cross hairs on the view screen help for trees, buildings and the horizon.

Not with anamorphic. You need a vertical straight line to get the glass positioned right. It's a pain.

Julie McLeod · Jul 31, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Yes his practice is now funny enough called House Calls and is aligned with Mt Sinai and EMS in Toronto.

I think there are now 5 dedicated doctors on his team , Nurse practitioners, Social workers, and Physiotherapists
They do get Govt funding and Sprint Canada provides a base for them to meet and work out of, He does house calls everyday and you have to be over 75 to get on his program, I will be grandfathered into the program at some point with my wife.

Thanks for that additional info. I only wish that I'll have a doctor like him twenty years on!

eddie · Jul 31, 2018

[QUOTE="jtk, post: 2101335, member: 22875" If you mostly shoot a DSLR, as most serious photographers do ...[/QUOTE]

This is the sort of comment you're prone to make which gets a strong response from me (and others). It's pure bullshit, and meant to subtly insult those who don't share your "digital superiority" views. Many "serious" photographers work without DSLRs. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never owned a DSLR. My only digital camera is a Canon S70 I bought in 2005, I think. I also have an iPhone, but I've never used either for anything important. I can assure you, though, I take my photography very seriously, from the creation to the exhibiting to the selling.

jtk · Jul 31, 2018

eddie said:
[QUOTE="jtk, post: 2101335, member: 22875" If you mostly shoot a DSLR, as most serious photographers do ...

This is the sort of comment you're prone to make which gets a strong response from me (and others). It's pure bullshit, and meant to subtly insult those who don't share your "digital superiority" views. Many "serious" photographers work without DSLRs. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never owned a DSLR. My only digital camera is a Canon S70 I bought in 2005, I think. I also have an iPhone, but I've never used either for anything important. I can assure you, though, I take my photography very seriously, from the creation to the exhibiting to the selling.[/QUOTE]

Eddie, don't get your shorts all bunched up!
I didn't demean you or your any of your amusing buddies.

This is Photrio, APUG is dead: if you browse casually on OUR Media you'll see that even here many of the best are shifting.

Me, I Rodinal stand processed (1+100 one hour) two rolls of Bergger yesterday, will Nikonscan tomorrow and knock off a few test prints. Hope you had good development yesterday as well.

removed account4 · Jul 31, 2018

eddie said:
[QUOTE="jtk, post: 2101335, member: 22875" If you mostly shoot a DSLR, as most serious photographers do ...

This is the sort of comment you're prone to make which gets a strong response from me (and others). It's pure bullshit, and meant to subtly insult those who don't share your "digital superiority" views. Many "serious" photographers work without DSLRs. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never owned a DSLR. My only digital camera is a Canon S70 I bought in 2005, I think. I also have an iPhone, but I've never used either for anything important. I can assure you, though, I take my photography very seriously, from the creation to the exhibiting to the selling.[/QUOTE]

eddie, put him on ignore and dont' feed the troll
chicago !

faberryman · Jul 31, 2018

jtk said:
This is Photrio, APUG is dead: if you browse casually on OUR Media you'll see that even here many of the best are shifting.

It might as well still be APUG. Of 76 threads today, 75 were Analog, one was Hybrid, and none were Digital. Of the latest 100 media posts, 83 were analog, 7 were hybrid, and 10 were digital. This is how it usually is. I'm not seeing the same big shift to digital around here you are.

removed account4 · Jul 31, 2018

faberryman said:
It might as well still be APUG. Of 76 threads today, 75 were Analog, one was Hybrid, and none were Digital. Of the latest 100 media posts, 83 were analog, 7 were hybrid, and 10 were digital. This is how it usually is. I'm not seeing the same big shift to digital around here you are.

i don't know many of the very best in the gallery are digital
and often times in the middle of an all film based post someone
will start spouting all sorts of digital and ink jet propaganda .. sure seems like times are a changin'

trendland · Oct 5, 2018

jnanian said:
i don't know many of the very best in the gallery are digital
and often times in the middle of an all film based post someone
will start spouting all sorts of digital and ink jet propaganda .. sure seems like times are a changin'

What I felt strange sometimes is the pricing of photgraphical Art wich is made on a digital base. Picasso was able to paint a lot during his early period.But also later he wasn't able and of course also not willing to reproduce his Art.
In concern of photograpical Art a negative is controlling the numbers of prints. The market also is regulating the circulation of prints. That is in concern of intention and pricing.
But where is the controlling without Film negatives?
A digital print is just an identical clone!

with regards

removed account4 · Oct 5, 2018

SNIP SNIP

trendland said:
A digital print is just an identical clone!

with regards

hi

not to be contrary but if you print 100 ink jet prints all at once from the same printer
or mini lab machine print im guessing ( maybe wrongly of course ) that
there will be slight variations between the prints. machines, like humans, are capable
of imperfections. it is the imperfections when looking at handcrafted things, that makes items unique
that no 2 things will be the same .. it may take a handful of prints to get this drift from perfection
but it is certainly possible.

i do see what you are saying though, but from where i sit, the fact that a negative is able to reproduce in a darkroom
10,000 prints i find to be one of the problems with photography. people may say, but if someone wants to buy the print they should be able to
unfortunately after the age of coated papers that made prints with the sun ... or unique images ( collodion ambro and tintypes and daguerreotypes )
i think that photography became just a mass produced piece of graphic art that everyone and anyone can make no different than its newer / younger cousin
not that there is anything wrong with that. ive worked in a lab and had to print 500 pr photos by hand before, its fun and challenging but its not by any means a work of art..
like a picasso ...

faberryman · Oct 5, 2018

trendland said:
What I felt strange sometimes is the pricing of photgraphical Art wich is made on a digital base. Picasso was able to paint a lot during his early period.But also later he wasn't able and of course also not willing to reproduce his Art.
In concern of photograpical Art a negative is controlling the numbers of prints. The market also is regulating the circulation of prints. That is in concern of intention and pricing.
But where is the controlling without Film negatives?
A digital print is just an identical clone!

with regards

Most film photographers don't destroy their negatives, so like digital, you have to trust the integrity of the individual on editioned prints.

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why you're not as good a photographer as you think you are

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