Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

brian steinberger · Jan 22, 2013

So... Tri-x is still giving me fits. I've even tried cutting the roll in half before hanging to dry and hanging at an angle after wiping once with fingers. I think the film needs perfectly even squeegee action or there are marks. This is not a problem with Ilford films, which I have mastered as posted above. So I've ordered a film squeegee (I know..) to try with Tri-x. I don't know what else to try. I love Tri-x but I'm frustrated at this point. It's worth a shot.

Jeff L · Jan 22, 2013

brian steinberger said:
So I've ordered a film squeegee (I know..) to try with Tri-x. I don't know what else to try. It's worth a shot.

I use a Yankee photo sponge style squeegee (I know...) that I ordered from B+H. I keep it very very clean and dampen it in the last photoflo wash. My film dries beautifully clean.

brian steinberger · Jan 23, 2013

Jeff L said:
I use a Yankee photo sponge style squeegee (I know...) that I ordered from B+H. I keep it very very clean and dampen it in the last photoflo wash. My film dries beautifully clean.

Thanks Jeff!! Good to know!

brian steinberger · Mar 31, 2014

brian steinberger said:
So... Tri-x is still giving me fits. I've even tried cutting the roll in half before hanging to dry and hanging at an angle after wiping once with fingers. I think the film needs perfectly even squeegee action or there are marks. This is not a problem with Ilford films, which I have mastered as posted above. So I've ordered a film squeegee (I know..) to try with Tri-x. I don't know what else to try. I love Tri-x but I'm frustrated at this point. It's worth a shot.

Update, I think I've finally found a way to streak free Tri-x negatives with my water. I must have REALLY hard water. Here's what I have to do with 120 Tri-x:

1: After wash in tap water I soak in distilled water for 4 minutes, with agitation to help diffuse out the hard tap water.
2: In 450ml of distilled water I add 4ml of Photo-FLo (Twice the recommended dilution (1:100)) and 6ml of rubbing alcohol. The rubbing alcohol seems to be the key in this process. Using 4ml of Photo-flo and distilled water alone didn't do it.
3: Hang to dry and squeegee with my fingers.

I also found I get more streaks with Walmart distilled water than I do with Target distilled water. There are so many variables in photography its kinda rediculous. The funny thing is that Ilford films are fine with tap water wash, then 6 drops of photo-flo in distilled water and perfect negatives.

NedL · Mar 31, 2014

brian steinberger said:
...
I also found I get more streaks with Walmart distilled water than I do with Target distilled water....

Wow that's food for thought. I'm working with calotypes that seem to be sensitive to even thinking about changing anything. I bought 8 gallons of Target distilled water but it never would have occurred to me that I need to keep using the same brand! Yikes. I hope they use a consistent supplier!

FWIW, I use 2ml photoflo to 500ml reverse osmosis filtered water and have never had drying marks on my tri-x or FP4+ 135 or 120. I use our R/O water for all parts of film developing: mixing dev/stop/fix and washing.

Glad to hear you've solved it!

michaelbsc · Apr 1, 2014

Do you have a way to test the conductivity of the Walmart water?

brian steinberger · Apr 1, 2014

michaelbsc said:
Do you have a way to test the conductivity of the Walmart water?

No I don't. What happened was I was getting streak-free results using the photo-flo/alcohol combo on a few rolls then suddenly the streaks showed back up. I thought about anything I had done differently. The only thing was the water. I had been using target distiller water and went to walmart water. I'm not 100% sure that was it, but it was the only variable I changed! Maybe some distiller water is more distiller than others??

Vilk · Apr 1, 2014

interesting, my fix was cutting down on wash times. the marks were really bad when i washed generously. now it's three vigorous "ilford cycles" in tap, then one in distilled, then a drop of LFN per litre of distilled for one last quick dip, an aggressive dog shake and hanging. i may get a mark once in a hundred frames, but for all practical purposes they're gone

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 1, 2014

You might write me off as foolish, but to avoid drying marks on 120 film I use a very soft and supple rubber edge and simply wipe off the excess.

I use Sprint End Run wetting agent, and the instructions clearly state to remove the excess wetting agent.

Never a spot on my negatives. No fancy distilled water or anything like that needed, just plain old tap water.

This doesn't work well on the emulsion side with Foma or Efke films, because they are extremely soft. Works really well with all other films (Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji).

You absolutely must keep that rubber edge clean, so what I do is wet my fingers with wetting agent mix, and run them along the rubber edge before I gently apply it to the film.

Sirius Glass · Apr 1, 2014

brian steinberger said:
Update, I think I've finally found a way to streak free Tri-x negatives with my water. I must have REALLY hard water. Here's what I have to do with 120 Tri-x:

1: After wash in tap water I soak in distilled water for 4 minutes, with agitation to help diffuse out the hard tap water.
2: In 450ml of distilled water I add 4ml of Photo-FLo (Twice the recommended dilution (1:100)) and 6ml of rubbing alcohol. The rubbing alcohol seems to be the key in this process. Using 4ml of Photo-flo and distilled water alone didn't do it.
3: Hang to dry and squeegee with my fingers.

I also found I get more streaks with Walmart distilled water than I do with Target distilled water. There are so many variables in photography its kinda rediculous. The funny thing is that Ilford films are fine with tap water wash, then 6 drops of photo-flo in distilled water and perfect negatives.

You will have less streaking if you skip the squeegee with fingers in step 3.

brian steinberger · Apr 1, 2014

Thomas, what kind of rubber edge? A small windshield wiper?

Thomas Bertilsson · Apr 1, 2014

brian steinberger said:
Thomas, what kind of rubber edge? A small windshield wiper?

Yes. A used windshield wiper works best because it has a smoother edge than a new one. But I imagine a silicone rubber edge of any type could be repropriated.

George Collier · Apr 2, 2014

Another great material for the final wipe is called "Webril Pads", a graphic arts material that comes on a very long roll about 8" wide. It is thick and soft, and free of any harmful stuff (may be cotton, I'm not sure) and is perforated into sheets like toilet paper. One sheet, soaked in the final rinse (mine is distilled water and a tiny bit of photo flo), then dried as much as you can, can be swabbed down on each side of the film after hanging to dry. Never a mark, scratch, or any other problem. And you can use one sheet for several rolls of film, a roll will last years. (I don't use them on sheet film.)

Sorry, I just realized I said this a few years ago at the beginning of this thread, oh well.

brian steinberger · May 12, 2014

FINAL UPDATE: You guys were right, I needed to get the excess water off of the Tri-x, more than just squeegeeing with fingers. What I tried was something I had in my darkroom: PEC pads, you can see them here. I take 2 pads for 120 film and put one on each side of the film and then squeegee using my fingers as I had before, except now the pads are wiping the film smoothly and cleanly. My Tri-x negs are drying perfectly clean, and consistently. For the final rinse I'm using Photo-flo at recommended dilution. Let's hope this is the last update!!

brian steinberger · Nov 7, 2014

FINAL FINAL UPDATE: I re-read this thread recently and a few other threads on this subject and saw quite a few recommendations here and on RFF for using a distilled water final wash and simply hanging the film to dry. No PHOTO FLO at all. Well I tried this and wouldn't you believe it. Perfect negs. Turns out I don't even need photo-flo. I thought I had this problem fixed in the previous post but have still been having the occasional white streak at the bottom of the film (the last frame).

So for anyone reading this thread. This is my recommendation if you've tried more photo-flo, less photo-flo and still get marks. Get rid of the photo-flo!! After you're running water wash dump the tank, fill with distilled water and agitate 20 times. Let tank sit for a minute. Dump, fill and agitate again. Then I hold the negs up in front of me at a 45 degree angle and let the water drain off, then hang to dry. No squeegee or finger squeegee or anything.

Sometimes we make things too difficult for ourselves.

Rick A · Nov 8, 2014

Brian, you are correct in getting rid of photo-flo, horrible stuff. I use distilled water with one drop LFN and a capful of 90% iso. for final rinse, then shake excess liguid from film while still in the reel. Never any spots or streaks and my film dries quickly.

JW PHOTO · Nov 8, 2014

I was taught in a Photography 101 college class to never, ever touch our film with anything while it's wet and almost nothing after it's dry. That was many years ago, but it's the one thing I do remember that our instructor drove into each of us. He also said that he'd know the minute he saw our negatives so I doubt any of us deviated from his advice. Later on I did try a special film squeegee that I still have, but never use. I still have a bottle of Photoflo, but only use it for pre-soaking film for some pyro development and not for final rinse. I use distilled water for a quick final rinse, then fill the tank back up with fresh distilled water and add two drops(for 120 film) Edwal's LFN and a tablespoon of 90% isol.alc., invert the tank several times and then let set for 4 or 5 minutes. This is pretty much what Rick A above does, but I use a little further twist. After the 4 or 5 minute set time I pull the film and hang it horizontally, with one end lower than the other, so the water runs downhill and drips off the lower corner. The final trick is after about 5 minutes or so I take a folded paper towel and just gently touch the built up water on the lower edge of the film to wick-away the bit of water that might not have enough gravitational pull to make it to that bottom corner. This works great for me and I'm not changing anything unless I start having problems. One thing I do agree on is that using even a slightly more than recommended amount of Photoflo is a killer so I don't mess with it anymore for final rinse. Just my thoughts. John W

cliveh · Nov 8, 2014

brian steinberger said:
FINAL FINAL UPDATE: I re-read this thread recently and a few other threads on this subject and saw quite a few recommendations here and on RFF for using a distilled water final wash and simply hanging the film to dry. No PHOTO FLO at all. Well I tried this and wouldn't you believe it. Perfect negs. Turns out I don't even need photo-flo. I thought I had this problem fixed in the previous post but have still been having the occasional white streak at the bottom of the film (the last frame).

So for anyone reading this thread. This is my recommendation if you've tried more photo-flo, less photo-flo and still get marks. Get rid of the photo-flo!! After you're running water wash dump the tank, fill with distilled water and agitate 20 times. Let tank sit for a minute. Dump, fill and agitate again. Then I hold the negs up in front of me at a 45 degree angle and let the water drain off, then hang to dry. No squeegee or finger squeegee or anything.

Sometimes we make things too difficult for ourselves.

And you don't even need to fill the tank twice.

JW PHOTO · Nov 8, 2014

cliveh said:
And you don't even need to fill the tank twice.

Whatever floats your boat! Or keeps your negatives streak/spot free...........................JohnW

cliveh · Nov 8, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Brian - just make sure you don't get "differential drying" (Kodak's term) artifacts. A wetting agent such as Photo Flo isn't only for eliminating water spots. It allows for more uniform drying.

Michael, I have never heard of this term. Please pray tell the pitfalls of differential drying.

Sirius Glass · Nov 8, 2014

Rick A said:
Brian, you are correct in getting rid of photo-flo, horrible stuff. I use distilled water with one drop LFN and a capful of 90% iso. for final rinse, then shake excess liguid from film while still in the reel. Never any spots or streaks and my film dries quickly.

PhotoFlo works best when the instructions are properly followed. I have used PhotoFlo in different parts of the country and never had a problem but then again I have only been using it since 1960.

brian steinberger · Nov 18, 2020

I know it’s been 6 years but I just wanted to update everyone on what I found actually worked for me to eliminate all marks for good. I rigged up a way to hang my films on an angle. 120 at about 35-40 degrees and 35mm at about 30 degrees. This works perfectly. I’ve been doing this for about 2 years now and haven’t had one reoccurrence of the original problem. I also do this with photo flo as the last step before hanging. 5 drops to 500ml works great for me. I also wanted to mention that differential drying marks as mentioned earlier in this thread are what I was experiencing when I ditched the photo flo altogether and just used distilled water final rinse. So I actually had two different issues, the first being marks from too much photo flo and the later, after I ditched the photo flo, being differential drying marks from the drops of distilled water not sliding off the film (and these marks were always at the bottom of the film as the water made its way to the bottom).

So if anyone is having these problems please try hanging your film at an angle! The late Roger Hicks recommended this practice and I finally gave it a try because I was desperate and low and behold, WOOO HOO!!

pentaxuser · Nov 19, 2020

brian steinberger said:
I'm going to give Edwal LFN a try. Also, I'm going to make sure my reels are well rinsed after each session.

I am still curious though, since I thought drying marks would be curable by re-soaking the film. Am I wrong?

I'd have thought so too, Brian. So the jpg is that of a scan made of the print from the negative? If my assumption is correct then the negative would have had black squiggles but there is nothing to be seen there?

Are we thus trying to address the wrong problem here when telling you how to avoid drying marks on a negative on which there are no such marks to be seen?

pentaxuser

brian steinberger · Nov 19, 2020

pentaxuser said:
I'd have thought so too, Brian. So the jpg is that of a scan made of the print from the negative? If my assumption is correct then the negative would have had black squiggles but there is nothing to be seen there?

Are we thus trying to address the wrong problem here when telling you how to avoid drying marks on a negative on which there are no such marks to be seen?

pentaxuser

pentaxuser, the image posted in the original post was a neg scan. That issue was determined to be using too much photo flo. It was around the time that neopan 400 was discontinued and I moved on to HP5 and FP4 and continued using the same process. Turns out Neopan could handle my “splash some photo flo in there” routine and the Ilford films cannot. So I had to be more precise.

After I got rid of photo flo the later problem I had was differential drying marks. I should post a scan of that issue. These form from droplets of water remaining on the film, as the film dries these droplets are the last to dry and they leave changes in density around that area. These will show up as darker outlines in a neg scan/print. The cure to this is to use the right amount of a wetting agent (photo flo) so the water slides off and does not form droplets.

This thread is years old and I’ve since resolved all my issues but I believe it’s a great source for someone experiencing any type of “drying marks.”

Btw, marks from too much photo flo can be removed with a stop bath soak and another wash. Differential drying marks can never be removed. This key helped me determine what my issue was.

pentaxuser · Nov 19, 2020

Thanks Brian for the reply and sorry for what must have seemed a strange reply from me after all these years the thread has been alive What beats me is how I picked up a post of yours from way back as if it was a recent post and you were still at the trying to solve the issue stage . I have now idea how I managed this?

pentaxuser

Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

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