Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

Ian Grant · Sep 17, 2010

I'd add another possibility which I've had here in Turkey. The water is very hard, calcium builds up in the pipes particularly the hot water to the extent that there's small filter on the end of the kitchen tap's spout that blocks every few months. The cold water only needs hot water added when mixing dev in the winter and then particles can be present in the developer and these can end up on the emulsion. They are quite difficult to dislodge & they don't wash off easily later, this caused me quite a problem just after Christmas this year.

Ian

Rick A · Sep 17, 2010

brian steinberger said:
Ok, so I'm planning on trying LFN. I've ordered some. Is the key to take the reel out of the tank when finished washing, fill the tank with distilled water, put two drops or so of LFN, mix, then dip the film? This is could have been my problem all along, as I would always empty the tank after the wash, pour distilled water in over the reel, then put photo-flo (too much apparently) in on top of that and lift the film in and out of the tank a few times. I always assumed doing so would mix the photo-flo into the water.

With LFN you only need one(1)drop per liter of distilled water. Adding one or two drops to the tank is overkill and causes build-up. Premix the LFN solution and then it can be reused several times before discarding.

George Collier · Sep 19, 2010

To second Matt's comment - in addition to not submerging the reels in PFlo, I also use an old chemistry flask for this final rinse, and for nothing else, and I still wash it out well afterwards. The flask has a soft flared lip at the top. I just dip the film in a long loop, side to side for 30 sec.

brian steinberger · Sep 29, 2010

Well I started using LFN as directed with distilled water and I'm still getting the marks. The only thing I can think of now is that when I have the negatives up to dry I run my fingers down over the roll once to wipe off excess water. Maybe I should not do this? Again it's only on the last few frames. Maybe wiping the film brings all the "stuff" to the bottom of the film to dry? Also I'm using a clothes hanger on the end, good idea or no?

moouers · Sep 30, 2010

brian steinberger said:
Well I started using LFN as directed with distilled water and I'm still getting the marks. The only thing I can think of now is that when I have the negatives up to dry I run my fingers down over the roll once to wipe off excess water. Maybe I should not do this? Again it's only on the last few frames. Maybe wiping the film brings all the "stuff" to the bottom of the film to dry? Also I'm using a clothes hanger on the end, good idea or no?

This is really pretty strange. I'm not exactly careful with photoflo like other users here, but I've never had a problem such as yours. I use a separate plastic food container that holds 1L of water and add the appropriate amount of PF, stir, and feed the film off the reel and into the distilled water/PF solution. Sometimes I take it out right away and sometimes I, shamefully, forget and it'll soak for ten minutes or so and it has never caused any problems. Then I cut the film into strips to fit archival sleeves and hang each strip straight down to dry. I even sometimes use clothes hangers if I run out of steel clips, just like you. One thing I don't do is squeegee, whether with my fingers or a device.

Do you cut up the strip before drying? Maybe, if you don't, you're seeing runoff from the entire strip versus 1/6th or whatever smaller portion of the roll?

rufusm · Sep 30, 2010

brian steinberger said:
Well I started using LFN as directed with distilled water and I'm still getting the marks. The only thing I can think of now is that when I have the negatives up to dry I run my fingers down over the roll once to wipe off excess water. Maybe I should not do this? Again it's only on the last few frames. Maybe wiping the film brings all the "stuff" to the bottom of the film to dry? Also I'm using a clothes hanger on the end, good idea or no?

Running fingers down the roll after putting through a wetting agent will leave water marks every time in my experience. I hang my rolls still wet from the tank with a couple of clothes pins. After a few minutes if in a hurry I run a hair dryer on low setting up and down the strip till dry then leave another 10-15 min till I cut and sleeve. My negs are always clean this way assuming that my tap water is fine and only use distilled water when mixing up batch chemicals.

fschifano · Sep 30, 2010

Jim Noel said:
Photo-flo on the reels will become a catalyst and somewhere along the line will begin to cause the problems you are having.
Never put reels in Photo Flo.

Sorry, I just can't buy that. I've been dipping my reels into Photoflo (very weak mind you, just enough to make the water sheet off the film and no more) for more years than I care to remember. I rinse the reels off well with warm water after each use and you know what? I've been using those reels for more than 20 years. There is no build up of anything, and the reels load just as easily as they ever did. I've seen no undue processing artifacts form any sort of catalyst action either.

I have no idea of the condition of the OP's water supply. It is possible that his water supply is very hard and contains quite a bit of calcium. If that's the case, an ion exchange filter (like the Britta and several other brands) will take care of that. No need to buy distilled water. It's also possible that he's simply using a bit too much PhotoFlo. The trick to using Photoflo, or any other surfactant type wetting agent for that matter, is to use only enough to prevent the water from beading up on the film and NO MORE. Using more causes foaming and foaming leaves marks just as nicely as hard water. It's really very simple.

Ottrdaemmerung · Sep 30, 2010

I'm rather new to developing -- just started this year -- and at first I got tell-tale marks on my negative strips, too. I stopped getting the marks when I stopped trying to squeegee the strip of film with my fingers.

I make sure to wash my film well to remove any trace of chemicals, using the "Ilford method" and then just dunking the reel in clean water many times just for good measure, then agitating it briefly in a tankful of Photo-Flo solution. I don't bother to actually mix up Photo-Flo 1+200 like the bottle says, mind you: three drops of concentrate into a two-reel developing tank is about perfect. More than that suds up too much. When I remove the film from the reel, I shake off any excess solution, hang it up, weight it, and just let it dry without any squeegeeing. If there's too much clinging to the film, I go after it with a rocket blaster before letting it dry.

fschifano · Sep 30, 2010

Agitation is completely unnecessary. Just dip the reel into the Photoflo and take it out. Ten seconds is plenty of time. More time doesn't hurt. Agitation can make it foam and that's not good. As far as the amount of Photoflo to use? Evidently the amount you're using appears to be just right for your water supply. The amount of concentrate necessary to do the job will vary with the condition of the local water supply. I can dilute it as much as 1+400 and still have a very effective wetting agent with my tap water.

brian steinberger · Oct 3, 2010

Ok, thanks guys. It appears I should stop with the squeegeeing with my fingers after the the LFN. I will try this with the film from now on. It seems to be the only variable left.

brian steinberger · Oct 4, 2010

Ok, well I tried hanging the negatives without wiping them with my fingers but I got some serious drying marks on the film base side, which is what I have never experienced before. I then tried again adding 2 capfuls of alcohol to the LFN. Those were better, but there were still a few spots. My next task is to try a squeegee. I think I had the right idea by squeegeeing them with my fingers. Maybe if I use an actual film squeegee I will get the results I'm looking for.

brian steinberger · Dec 20, 2011

Just for future reference, it's been months of trials and tribulations with this problem and finally over the past two months I've consistently been producing spotless negatives. The problem before was that I was using TOO MUCH photo-flo. My process now is to add just 4-6 drops of photo-flo into distilled water. Agitate very little. Lift the reel out, tilt at a 45 degree angle and let the water drip off. Then after clipped on the line squeegee off water between fingers twice. Then clip bottom of film with a clothespin and bingo!

Bill Burk · Dec 20, 2011

Thanks for the tip. I go through waves of time with no problem and suddenly gunk. I pour a little bit from the bottle which sets up a risk for inconsistency...

Contrastique · Aug 17, 2012

Thanks for the tips! I've had these drying marks for so long, they drive my frikkin nuts! I've tried everything (at least so I thought) but at school I learned to use agepon as a final rinse WITH agitation for a whole minute. This evidently leads to foam forming which, if I understand correctly, leads to drying marks. This makes sense so hope that with this little trick there will come an end to the neverending nightmare of drying streaks on film. More apparant on 35mm then 120, which hardly suffers from that issue possibly because its surface is bigger.

Thanks!

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 17, 2012

You're not going to believe me, but I use an old windscreen wiper blade that has been thoroughly cleaned. It's still very supple. After film processing cycle is done, and the wash, I take the film off the reel, and see-saw it through a container with roughly 16oz of water and a tea spoon of Sprint End Run wetting agent. Ten times, back and forth. Then I hang the film up vertically, clip a weight to the bottom, dip the windscreen wiper in the wetting agent, remove excess with my fingers, and run it along the entire length of the film, base side and emulsion side.
This does not work with Foma or Efke film. They sometimes scratch, so with them I only do the base side. With any Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji film I've never had a single scratch, and the negatives dry 100% clean of any spots every single time. The only time I have to spot more than two or three spots, even on 16x20 prints from 35mm, is if I'm printing old negatives.

rjbuzzclick · Aug 17, 2012

I believe you Tom! I use Photo-Flo at regular strength in the developing tank with inversions. I've never worried about foaming. I would occasionally get drying marks, but that stopped when I switched from tap water to distilled water to mix up the PF. I then follow with a film squeege dipped in PF and the excess shaken off, and the squeege closed with almost no pressure and held at a slight angle to the film. No scratches either.

cliveh · Aug 17, 2012

After wash, deionised water for about 30 seconds and then dry at ambient temperature. No drying marks.

Curt · Aug 18, 2012

markbarendt said:
I've started hanging all my films at an angle rather than vertically, it has helped.

Roll film too?

Contrastique · Aug 18, 2012

Hey Thomas,
I've never wiped of my film with a sort of squeegee afraid of scratching the film. I used to dip my fingers in the agepon mixture after that last bath and wiped off the film that way. Always drying marks.
I've used distilled water for the agepon mix, drying marks. I've rinsed the film off with distilled water afterwards, drying marks. We have a bottle of Photoflo at work so might give that a go although I doubt it will change anything but worth a shot I guess. I'm really tired of these marks.

Squeeging...dunno, sounds a little scary to me haha but I can try on a test film. I also feel that the Kodak films suffer less from this than Ilford films but that could be me

markbarendt · Aug 18, 2012

Curt said:
Roll film too?

Yep. When I do have a problem it affects fewer frames that way.

Since that last post I've also experimented with Thomas' idea but with different tools.

With my Nitrile gloves on I Squegee with my fingers before hanging, seems to work nicely. My first experiment with this was with bare fingers, there may be those that have supple enough skin to make that work but mine is not, bare fingers for me add scratches.

Sirius Glass · Aug 18, 2012

Follow the instructions for Kodak PhotoFlo or equivalent.
Pour in the tank with the top off and leave for 30 seconds to a minute, then pour out. Exception do not put into the Jobo Expert tanks, use a plastic container instead.
Hang the film.
Rinse the tank and reels well with hot water immediately.
Use a paper towel to blot the bottom edge of the film every time fluid collect while drying.

I have only been doing this for over fifty years and I have never had a problem, but Kodak PhotoFlo or equivalent should only be used on black & white film.

Maris · Aug 18, 2012

I reckon drying marks form if the PhotoFlo rinse dries before it has had time to run off the film. This is what I do to 100% avoid drying marks:

Hang the film while it is very wet and streaming with PhotoFlo solution BUT hang it edge down at a 45 degree angle. The liquid only has to flow across the film to the bottom edge and then along this edge to the bottom clip. This takes only a few seconds, not the minutes it would take for a bubble to drift vertically down from the top frame to the last frame. Actually I do occasionally get faint drying marks but they are all on the edge of the film and never on the picture area.

Xmas · Aug 29, 2012

If they were drying marks a soak in faucet water for 5 mins and redry should move them.
The calcium in water supply can vary.
My supply has solid particles.
I use lots of washing up detergent foam it and a film squeegee only get marks very occasionally on emulsion side.

Leigh B · Aug 29, 2012

brian steinberger said:
Thanks guys, maybe I should invest in a dropper and just put 2 or so drops of photo-flo per roll?

You should use the specified dilution, either 1:200 or 1:2000 depending on which version you have.

I swirl the reel(s) around in the PF for 30 seconds, back and forth, then take them out, drain at an angle, unreel and hang.
After putting the weighted clip on the bottom, I run my (clean) fingers down the length of the film like a squeegee.

Been doing it this way since shortly after they invented light, and never had a problem with water spots.

- Leigh

brian steinberger · Oct 29, 2012

brian steinberger said:
Just for future reference, it's been months of trials and tribulations with this problem and finally over the past two months I've consistently been producing spotless negatives. The problem before was that I was using TOO MUCH photo-flo. My process now is to add just 4-6 drops of photo-flo into distilled water. Agitate very little. Lift the reel out, tilt at a 45 degree angle and let the water drip off. Then after clipped on the line squeegee off water between fingers twice. Then clip bottom of film with a clothespin and bingo!

This was my last update, but now I have even more news. While all the above is still true I was still getting an occasional streak on a roll every once in a while. I now no longer get any streaks on Ilford 120 films. The key is that now when I add 5 drops of photo-flo to the distilled water I swirl it around with a finger to mix it up. I truly believe that this, along with just using too much photo-flo is what my problem was.

I've only perfected this with Ilford films. I love Tri-x but I gets streaks almost all the time even using this method. I'm going to slowly up the drops of photo-flo I add and see if that helps. Will keep you all updated!

Drying marks with Ilford 120 FP4 and HP5??

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