Drying marks, what to do?

[DutchDarkroom]

I know this has been extensively discussed on here, with some varying opinions. Just wanted to check if my idea is correct.

I developed some film yesterday, part of a important project for me. After the film dried a bit i saw some horrible drying spots, one film had a sort of stream running down it. I figured i used way too much photoflo so i rewashed and used photoflo with 1-2 drops in ~400ml water, when the film started drying again it now has regular water spots (the whitish dry drop type), just very much of them.

My water shouldn't be very hard, it's 6,3dH, 1,12mmol/L, 6,6 gpg or 112mg/l (why are there so many units for this?!?!)

I have read i could use some alcohol to wipe the marks off, but because it's all over 3 rolls that seems a bit tedious and tricky.

My plan now would be to make a working strength stop bath with distilled water to disolve the calcium, then wash in distilled water and then a final rinse in photoflo in distilled water.

Would this process work and is it safe?
What times should i use?
Should i renew the baths after each roll?

 

[cliveh]

Don't use any photoflo and after the final wash, dunk your film into a solution of deionised water, agitate the film for about 30 seconds and hang up to dry. If you still get any drying marks, they only form on the shiney side of the film. When the film is dry, lay it on something clean and soft such as a negative page emulsion side down and breath on the shiney side, as you might mist up a mirror. Then wipe the drying marks off with clean lens cleaning cloth such as that found in a spectacle case.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

DI/distilled water is correct for the final photo-flow. I add about 30ml of isopropyl alcohol for every 500ml of DI to the photo-flow working solution. The alcohol helps a lot with sheeting action and further minimizes the chance of droplet formation on the drying film.

If this is MF film then you can also try hanging the film at a 45 degree angle - this makes the run-off hit the edge of the film and then run down the edge to the end. There are some discussions of this on Photrio.

For some reason Photo-flow gets the same religious treatment as using an acid stop bath. I guess it is because both topics don't really don't matter much, until they do. My take on it is that Kodak knows an awful lot more about the subject than myself or anyone else on any internet forum (Youtube, even).

To add further to the hysteria - I wet my fingers in the Photo-flow and squeegee the film between them. I have never gotten scratches, neither have I ever gotten water spots in the past 60+ years.

 

[gealto2]

I know this has been extensively discussed on here, with some varying opinions. Just wanted to check if my idea is correct.

I developed some film yesterday, part of a important project for me. After the film dried a bit i saw some horrible drying spots, one film had a sort of stream running down it. I figured i used way too much photoflo so i rewashed and used photoflo with 1-2 drops in ~400ml water, when the film started drying again it now has regular water spots (the whitish dry drop type), just very much of them.

With hard water, which you likely have based on the whiteish water spots, you should do a final wash in distilled or RO water, followed by the careful few drops of photoflo in a seperate wash regularly.

My water shouldn't be very hard, it's 6,3dH, 1,12mmol/L, 6,6 gpg or 112mg/l (why are there so many units for this?!?!)

I don't know what these numbers mean. With the spots you describe, the water must be pretty hard.

I have read i could use some alcohol to wipe the marks off, but because it's all over 3 rolls that seems a bit tedious and tricky.

This runs a strong risk of scratching those negatives.

My plan now would be to make a working strength stop bath with distilled water to disolve the calcium, then wash in distilled water and then a final rinse in photoflo in distilled water.

I know people use vinegar to remove calcium spots, so that should work as well as stop bath, I would soak the films in distilled water/vinegar (1 part vinegar to 4 parts water) and agitate for a few minutes. Then you will need a long washing to remove the vinegar, same as your normal film washing. Then a final wash in distilled water. Then do a final rinse in distilled water with a few drops of photoflo then hang and dry. Here in the US, vinegar is about 5%, so 1:4 would give about 1%. Adjust for the strength of your vinegar. I think the stop bath may be too strong and take too much washing to remove.

Would this process work and is it safe?

Likely yes and yes, depending on how bad the spots are.

What times should i use?

Something like 5 min. in vinegar/water solution, normal washing time, what should be a quick one minute distilled water rinse followed by photoflo.

Should i renew the baths after each roll?

I would try it first on the roll with the worst spots to make sure it works, then do the others rolls together the same way. Best to change baths between. Adjust vinegar/water soak time if spots persist.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

Thanks for the replies, i tried a strip to test the process. However, when i pulled out the negative after pre soaking in normal water i noticed the drying marks seemed to be gone. I decided to try the simpler method first and rinsed in distilled water with a drop of photoflo and hung the strip up to dry. I'll report back after drying if this fixed the issue.

 

[pentaxuser]

I live in nearly the hardest water area in the U.K. I use wetting agent in ordinary water and in 20 years have not had water spots but I do shake the film to remove as many drops of wetting agent as possible then use my middle fingers and pull them down the film so no drops remain. Then I hang it up in a covered drying box with a fan blowing filtered air across it

My conclusion from this experience is that the key is to remove all drops of water in such a way that they cannot stick to or rest on the film while it dries

pentaxuser

 

[DutchDarkroom]

I'll report back after drying if this fixed the issue.

Though a bit less, there are still drying spots. Trying the stop method now.

 

[logan2z]

I used to suffer from water marks/streaks as well, and live in an area with hard water. It took me a while to find a workflow that eliminated them. Here's what I do:

• After fixing the film, wash the film in the tank using the Ilford method, using plain tap water.
  
  
• Remove the reel from the tank and place into 32 oz of distilled water. Let it soak for 5 minutes.
  
  
• Remove reel from distilled water, and insert two drops of LFN into water. Stir well.
  
  
• Open reel and dump film strip into water/LFN mixture. Agitate for 1 minute.
  
  
• Remove film strip and hang using film clips.
  
  
• "Squeegee" the film strip from top to bottom using PEC pads, front and back until most fluid is removed. I used to use Kimwipes but they can leave lint on the film. PEC pads are essentially lint free.
  
  
• Leave film to hang until completely dry.
  

I have not experienced any drying marks/streaks since using this method. I have also not experienced any scratching of the film using PEC pads, they're very soft.

Good luck!

 

[logan2z]

My conclusion from this experience is that the key is to remove all drops of water in such a way that they cannot stick to or rest on the film while it dries

Yes, my experience too. I use PEC pads to remove the water, but whatever method works (and doesn't scratch the film)...

 

[koraks]

Just wipe off the marks and work on a better process for the next rolls.
Btw, I've found the easiest way to avoid the marks on 35mm film (I've never had them on 120 and sheet film) is to just wipe the shiny side with a tissue immediately after hanging the film to dry. Conversely, pretty much everything else I tried would help a little or a lot, but never 100%, so now much of the time I just wash in tap water, don't add anything and simply wipe the film as said. No drying marks - absolutely zero.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

The test has dried after using acetic acid in the following process:

pre soak water 3 min
stopbath adox acetic acid 1+19 5 min
wash 20 mins water
demineralised water 2 mins
demineralised water 2 drops adoflo 1 min
hang to dry
i overshot the adoflo a bit but the result doesn't seem to come from this.

I still have water spots, i am now quite stumped as to why. I'll try some alcohol or just a microfiber cloth on a strip to see how well that works but i don't think that method will be realistic for all the rolls.

I've gotten a lot of replies on prevention, i understand that they are well meant but this has been discussed here before and the opinions seem to vary widely. I am looking for a solution to the drying spots i have on my negatives now.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

A photo of the drying marks for reference, about this much is everywhere on the roll. The drying marks are not (or barely) visible without flashlight, with flashlight they are a bit more visible than shown here.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Those are unlike any drying marks I have ever seen. They are strangely in sync with the film perforations.

There is something else going on here. Damned if I know what, though.

FWIW, there is no need for anything but a brief rinse after the acetic acid step in your protocol. Acetic acid evaporates away, unlike hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric and other 'mineral' acids.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

So many variations here, but some best practices stand out.

If you have hard water, you need a final soak in distilled water to remove dissolved minerals from the emulsion and prevent mineral-laded water droplets from drying and leaving spots. You can do this with or without PhotoFlo, but I prefer to combine the steps. So, a distilled water/PhotoFlo bath for at least five minutes.

Mixing PhotoFlo to the right dilution is important. Try following the instructions first. Kodak did a lot of testing and this likely will work well. The goal is to have the water left on the film not form droplets. If the surfactant in PhotoFlo is doing its job, the water will sheet and run off. If it's not, you need to use a higher dilution (unlikely if you mixed according to the directions).

Get rid of excess water on the film before hanging to dry. Some shake, some wipe, some squeegee, but choose a method that works for you and use that. FWIW, I squeegee film between two fingers. I have soft hands

Hang the film so droplets form at a corner, especially if you have sheet film. For 35mm film this is less important if you've done all the other steps.

Most problems come from not doing one of the above adequately.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

 

[MattKing]

In case it helps, this is what works for me: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photoflo-stock-solution.396/

 

[koraks]

I still have water spots, i am now quite stumped as to why.

"I told you so."

I've gotten a lot of replies on prevention

Cause that's what really helps.

I am looking for a solution to the drying spots i have on my negatives now.

Wash the film in a weakly acidic solution. Use a pinch of citric acid or a small dash of unscented cleaning vinegar to a tray of water. Stop bath is also OK. Soak film in that for a few minutes. Then wash the film in plain water. This can be tap water, or use demineralized if you prefer. Then wipe down the shiny side of the film as you hang it to dry with a lint-free cloth. Wipe slowly so the water all soaks up. No force.
Your film will be spotless.

 

[cliveh]

Photoflo contains water which may have some dissolved calcium deposits. If the last liquid you use on your film is deionised water, then no drying marks.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

Photoflo contains water which may have some dissolved calcium deposits. If the last liquid you use on your film is deionised water, then no drying marks.

I guess we had a similar idea at the same time. The only factor i had not yet excluded was the adoflo, so i decided to take a roll into deionized water for 5 mins, shake it well and hang to dry. Way less watermarks now, maybe 2 or 3 on the entire roll. Still not ideal but that i can take off with a wipe or alcohol probably. I will not touch the adoflo for now, just rinse in deionised water after washing and then shake.

My theory is that i used too much photoflo and trough all my methods did not remove it because i ended in a bit of adoflo? Or just a bad batch, seems unlikely though. I'm actually not sure if its really the classic calcium deposits or a different type because of too much adoflo.

Whatever it is i now know to use little or no photoflo and i'll try this on the other rolls. Thanks for all the help!

 

[koraks]

I'm actually not sure if its really the classic calcium deposits or a different type because of too much adoflo.

Could be either.
The adoflo is unlikely to contain calcium as suggested above by @cliveh. No self-respecting manufacturer would use tap water in this application. @ADOX Fotoimpex can confirm.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

Rinsed all the films now, shaked them and hung them up to dry. They all have mostly small drops on them, they do seem a bit curvy though (across the length of the film). Hope they dry well, i guess i'll see tomorrow...

 

[koraks]

If you wipe the drops, there will be no marks. Anyway, decide for yourself.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

So the rinse in distilled water didn't remove all marks, rinsing again didn't help much further. I decided this was about as good as it will get and sleeved the negatives to prevent further dust and scratches.

I developed another roll and used the following finishing procedure:
20 mins wash
take out of reels
put into distilled water with 1-2 drops of adoflo in 500ml for ~45 seconds
wipe film with fingers
dry

After 1 hour drying i saw white marks like in the pictures before, i don't think it's calcium deposits. What the hell am i doing wrong???

(I know everyone has a different process on this so a lot of you will disagree with my method but i can't think of a good reason why these marks formed with the method i used.)

The only reasons i can think of are:

1. Bad batch (seems unlikely to me)

2. Improper drying conditions, i'm hanging on a line in a decently clean basement. Maybe not perfect for dust but that is besides the point for now.

3. Something with earlier steps, fix might be a bit exhausted but it should be within margins.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

Putting the film in distilled water for 10 mins and then shaking really well and hanging to dry helped best with these marks before so i'm doing that right now.

 

[DutchDarkroom]

My best theory now is the adoflo caused these white drop like spots. These rinse off pretty well in distilled water but because I don't use photoflo I get drying marks because of uneven drying. No clue if this theory is correct but it's the only one i can think off.