Drying Marks - Solutions Without Distilled water?

Tom Stanworth · Sep 14, 2009

Hi,

Still being tormented by the dire water quality in Afghanistan... I have never had so many film developing issues (silt, drying marks, bubbles):

I am having drying mark issues due to dissolved minerals in the water. I use wetting agent and dry film vertically, but I cant prevent the issue occurring using this technique.

I literally cannot find distilled water (yet) so I am looking for other solutions:

Does anyone here dry their film in the spirals? If so, can you please explain how to do this safely (for the film!)? is it a case of rinsing the spirals in wetting agent and then drying horizontally so the water runs to the base/edge of the film? Is this good for eliminating drying marks?

Who dries film at and angle so the water runs to the sprocket holes and down rather than longitudinally down the film? What sort of an angle do you use? How effective is this for people who would ordinarily get those faint lines down the middle of the film if drying vertically.

I now use factory bottled water here as the tap water is often laden with silt (had another recent near disaster despite trickling the tap water into containers in bulk for use). The factory bottles water is not mideral water but filtered bore hole water and it evidently has plenty of dissolved minerals (but no dirt at least!), so I need to find a way of eliminating these pesky drying marks without distilled water!

Rgds

Shangheye · Sep 14, 2009

Have you thought about drying the film horizontally? The water has less distance to fall and therefore should reach the other side before any streaking (and may only affect the relevant frames rather than running down the whole film). I would give it a test run. The most important thing is to make sure the upper sprockets have been wiped clear of water to avoid accumulation of droplets.

K

Rick A · Sep 14, 2009

Have you tried to filter your water? Try to get a faucet filter or one of the pitcher units. Either a Britta or PUR brands should work. Maybe you have a connection in the states that can obtain one for you? If not, PM me and we'll work out getting a unit out to you.
Rick

Tom Stanworth · Sep 14, 2009

ralnphot, thanks for the offer, but I should be able to get a Britta filter out here (if I look hard enough) or sent out here.

What impact does age of the wetting agent have? I never thought this would be an issue and mine is about two years old.

I tend to find the marks are caused both by one or two lines running down the centre and the odd area where a little ball of water has evidently stopped in its tracks and dried in situ rather than moving on to the bottom,

Ian Grant · Sep 14, 2009

Wetting agent doesn't age unless you're constantly re-using the same bath.

The Britta or similar filter should be sufficient, but I'm sure we've had this discussion before. I tend to squeege 35mm & 120 films but only through my fingers that seems to help substantially and hasn't caused a problem.

Ian

Tom Stanworth · Sep 14, 2009

Ian, interesting re the finger squeegee helping. I might try this and see what happens. Another factor might be temperature. My film tends to dry in my bathroom which is roughly 26 degs c. I reckon that heat makes things worse by forcing areas of 'thin water' to dry very quickly (such as the film back) and before the water has had a chance to fully pour off. I will try the finger squeegee and see if I can drop the temp down a good few degs with the AC. I am trying to figure out how to dry the film at an angle, because I dont have any way of holding it edge down. will scratch my head on this one.

I think previous discussions with me were related to air bubbles. still driving me mad too. Its Kabul, nothing works as it should, you never feel well for too long, simple things have a habit of becoming impossible... I remember the (UK) days when film processing never resulted in marks from air bubbles, or drying marks, or ANYTHING.

Ian Grant · Sep 14, 2009

I'm processing in similar conditions with regards to water, better in some ways but very high salt levels. Bottled water isn't like UK bottled water either.

A very small amount of wetting agent in the dev cured the air bubbles. I mean one or 2 drops no more as too much ill cause foaming and air bubbles for different resons. Try keeping your used dev and when you've finished processing try putting a dry reel in the tank pouring dev to just cover and observe the air bubbles, they are quite difficult to dislodge with agitation or tapping. Some commercial devs contain a trace of surfactant.

Ian

Tom Stanworth · Sep 14, 2009

Ian,

I have also noticed the bubbles are incredibly hard to remove with tapping. I would describe my tapping as banging

I found that when I used to add wetting agent to the fixed and washed film on reels inside the tank that I got more residue (gunk) on the spirals that made 120 loading more difficult, especially when warm and humid. Do you think that wetting agent in the dev causes any additional problems like this? I might try this on the assumption that once the stop and washes have been through things have been washed pretty clean and that by doing the final rinse in wetting agent with the film off the spirals and loose in a tank of wetting agent, I can avoid too much residue build up on the spirals.

Its odd that I never get drying marks on the 120, but only 35mm. I think it is something to do with the contour of 35mm. However I hang the 120 it seems that the water ends up on the edge, whereas with 35mm it tends to course down the centre.

Thanks for all the tips everyone

Chris Nielsen · Sep 14, 2009

Tom Stanworth said:
I am trying to figure out how to dry the film at an angle, because I dont have any way of holding it edge down. will scratch my head on this one

I read somewhere that a good way to dry film diagonally is to pin it across the bathroom doorframe, haven't tried it myself but it seems logical I suppose

Anon Ymous · Sep 14, 2009

What I'm going to propose may make things worse, or better. You need to test it. Nevertheless...

Boiling water to purify it might seem a bad idea. After all, some water will evaporate and the concentration of salts will increase. On the other hand, many areas have hard water because of calcium salts. I've lived in such places and when you boil that water, you get some particles floating in there. Sometimes it looks like flakes. That's probably calcium carbonate (CaCO3, chalk), which is very insoluble in water. Hard water usually contains calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2), which is quite soluble. When heated, the HCO3- ion becomes CO3-- and chalk precipitates. Filtering these particles should be rather easy.

Try it, you've got nothing to lose.

Ian Grant · Sep 14, 2009

Tom, I'm suggesting so little wetting agent that it's not likely to give a problem,cause a build up. Much of the build up on spirals is gelatin anyway and best removed using bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite/Domestos) every 6 months/year it really depends how much use a reel has. The gelatin builds up slowly picks up wetting agent over time.

With 35mm I use kitchen towelling to remove all the water from the back as I squeegee through my fingers, I never had drying marks on 120 until moving to Turkey, but I know now it's the water.

Ian

Ian Grant · Sep 14, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
What I'm going to propose may make things worse, or better. You need to test it. Nevertheless...

Boiling water to purify it might seem a bad idea. After all, some water will evaporate and the concentration of salts will increase. On the other hand, many areas have hard water because of calcium salts. I've lived in such places and when you boil that water, you get some particles floating in there. Sometimes it looks like flakes. That's probably calcium carbonate (CaCO3, chalk), which is very insoluble in water. Hard water usually contains calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2), which is quite soluble. When heated, the HCO3- ion becomes CO3-- and chalk precipitates. Filtering these particles should be rather easy.

Try it, you've got nothing to lose.

Actually it's a recommended technique, boil and leave to cool and settle, most of the Calcium & Magnesium salts coagulate and drop out of solution, Hydrogen Sulphide and Chlorine boil off. It's not sufficient where salt levels are abnormally high.

In my case water comes from a borehole in dry spells and we are less than 200 metres from the sea in a high limestone area.

Ian

BetterSense · Sep 14, 2009

Who dries film at and angle so the water runs to the sprocket holes and down rather than longitudinally down the film? What sort of an angle do you use? How effective is this for people who would ordinarily get those faint lines down the middle of the film if drying vertically.

I do 35mm like that, because it's easy to hang it up at an angle using magnets on the clothes rods in my dark-closet. I think it helps quite a bit. When I get lazy and hang vertically I sometimes get small spots of photoflo scum on the film.

Tom Stanworth · Sep 14, 2009

I have pins and a bathroom door frame so that works! I re-rinsed some film with surface marks in a fresh solution of wetting agent and then squeegeed with my fingers and tho their were very faint marks they were only visible at an angle and disappeared looking at the film on a lightbox, so success! I like the idea of using kitchen roll for the back and will try that too. Will also try drying at an angle if that does not improve things to the point of no marks at all.

Some great advice here and despite developing film for 8 years, these problems have never presented themsleves until now!

Ian Grant · Sep 14, 2009

Strange, I have 30+ year old wetting agent that's as good as new.

It's one of those things like Phenidone that lasts for a great many years with zero deterioration, but I guess not all wetting agents are the same.

Ian

dancqu · Sep 15, 2009

DIY Distilled

Small quantities of distilled water are easily
obtained using a home made water distiller.
From Google search for, diy water distiller.
Quite a slew to chose from.

Opportunity may be knocking. Could make
for a good business. Dan

laparn · Sep 15, 2009

Hi!

I use tap water and Ilfotol in a spray bottle (used for flowers). Hang film vertically and spray superfluously at least two times per side. Use fine spray drops, i.e almost closed nozzle, for best result. Let it hang and dry and you should get rid of any dry marks.

This technique also enable to use a higher concentration of wetting agent without risk of foam/bubbles as might happen when adding to the tank. A higher concentration decrease the surface tension of the water even more and consequently decrease the risk of remaining drops on surface.

I have previously tried adding wetting agent to the water before removing from tank and spiral but I find that method very poor compared to the one I currently use. The spray method apply an even layer over the film where it is also possible to re-spray if needed (if dust or else caught on the wet surface).

Good luck!

Tom Stanworth · Sep 17, 2009

Lots of great tips! I have developed six rolls in two batches since last online and have the problem licked (with Neopan 400 and 1600 at least!). This is what I did:

1-2 small drops of Ilfotol wetting agent in the developer.
Squeegeed with fingers very gently after bathing the film in wetting agent solution.
Used kitchen roll folded over (no lint it seems) to remove most of the water from the non-emulsion side with a single gentle wipe downwards.
Air dried vertically.

On six rolls I have a single minor area where some water formed a little spot and dried. A huge improvement and I am indebted to you all. Thanks again.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 17, 2009

Tom,

Another solution to the paper towel technique. I learned this from a friend.
Take an old used windshield wiper (if you can find one). After the film has been hung up, wet the wiper blade with the wetting agent solution, make sure the edge is smooth, and run it from top to bottom along the base side of the film.
If nothing else, you won't be wasting a sheet of kitchen towel every time you process. It has worked great for me. No distilled water here, but also no sediment in the water. It's just extremely hard water.

Good luck!

- Thomas

Drying Marks - Solutions Without Distilled water?

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