Drying marks no matter what!!

[synj00]

Hey gang, I'm wondering if anyone can offer any suggestions.

I have what appears to be a thin film of gunk on my negatives on the emulsion side. I have been trying everything I can to get rid of this but they are still there. I've even moved on to using distilled water for the final rinse. I cut waaaaaaaaaay back on the photo-flo and have even resorted to using a cap full of isopropyl alcohol and 1 drop of photo flo and still no luck.

Now I believe these are drying marks because they follow the wavy pattern that the water dries in, all the way down the length of the negatives. Here is my wash method. Anyone see any problems or have suggestions?

1 minute rinse in the sink to wash out the fixer
3 minute rinse with archival pro hypo wash (4 inversions every 30 seconds)
5 minute rinse in the sink
1 minute rinse in distilled water with 1 drop photo-flo
let the water drip off the reel
unspool and hang to dry in the shower

I have tried up to 4 drops of photo-flo thinking that it was not enough and giving mineral deposits - same thing

And lastly have tried 1 drop photo-flo and cap full of isopropyl alcohol all with the same results. Although the alcohol dries those suckers quick!

I may try another brand of distilled water - I've been using the target brand and its noted that it is distilled via reverse osmosis so I'd think it would be fine.

Anyone do battle with drying marks? I'm pretty frustrated right now.

 

[Graham.b]

Hello i have to say i do very much of what you have explained, but i do not use a hypo. From the sink wash it is then in to a bath of bottled water. Let stand, M/T then in the bottled water again stand for a couple of mins, shake of water, hang diagonally. Leave to dry and not open doors. Works for me, but it did take time to find the right water. Just spring water, no chems no drops. In our area we have chalk downs so we have to use bottled water it is the only way.

Graham

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Drying marks is from how the film is dried. I recently solved my own problem with this by:

1. Following the instructions of how much PhotoFlo goes into the water.
2. Put the PhotoFlo+water solution in an open container, filled to the brim, and see-sawing the film through 7 or 8 times
3. Hang the film to dry at a 45 degree angle (this way the 'stuff' in the water doesn't accumulate and 'land' on the frames at the bottom, it runs off to the side, like a ditch)

The drying marks have nothing to do with the process prior to drying the film.

- Thomas

 

[David William White]

Unless perchance, the 'thin film of gunk' is actually from incomplete fixing. I only mention because synj00 seems to be following a wash routine far more rigorous than is necessary (distilled water, alcohol, different dilutions of photo-flo), and it's on the emulsion side. Just a thought.

 

[Tim Gray]

I found that for me, I needed to do a final rinse in distilled water + photoflo. I tried to listen to the people who say less is better when it comes to photoflo and it just wasn't true (for me). I do 1 drop from my dropper per ounce of water. So 16 drops in 16 oz for my 2 reel can. I shake it a couple times, let it sit for 30 secs, and then hang them up to dry. After hung, I pour the photoflo solution on the negatives from the top, so it can run down the full length of the film.

And I know this sounds extreme, but I also found that I had to do all my washing with distilled water. If I didn't, I'd get weird oily drops on my film, whether I used photoflo or not.

 

[synj00]

The reason for my vigorous washing method was because of the purple tint never quite being washed out (solved with hypo clear) and the darn marks in the first place. I am currently using 4 minutes of Kodak Rapid Fixer with 10 seconds of agitation every minute. Its a new batch as well and am getting the same marks from the last batch as well. Good thought though. So incomplete fixing can also lead to stuff on the emulsion side? At this point I'm willing to try anything and may mix up some regular fixer.

 

[srs5694]

Some suggestions:

• As above, try another fixer.
• Try doing without the Photo Flo entirely. Some people say this works better than using the wash aid. (I'm not one of them, although I do use half the directed amount.)
• Try a different brand of wash aid. (You could do a test with dishwashing liquid. PE recommends against using dishwashing liquid because some of its ingredients may be detrimental to negatives in the long term. I'm just thinking of a proof-of-concept sort of test -- if dishwashing liquid works better than Photo Flo, then switching to another brand of wash aid may be worthwhile.)
• Try an extra-vigorous cleaning of your tank and reels between rolls, or even replacing them entirely. Ditto for whatever you use to hold the negatives while you wash them, if it's not the processing tank and reels. My thought is that something might be sticking to the tank/reels/wash bowl and coming off as you do the final wash.
• Thoroughly clean, or better yet replace, all the bottles you use to store all your processing chemicals, from developer through to wash aid.

These are all shot-in-the-dark suggestions; I'm just trying to think of things that might be sources of contamination or other problems.

 

[synj00]

Yeah I was thinking about going to glass bottles for the chemicals too. I am currently using the brown plastic gallon jugs and thoroughly wash them with scalding hot water but maybe its not enough.

I'll try the 16 drops photo-flo method this afternoon and drying at 45 degrees and report back.

 

[Erik L]

I find Edwal's LFN superior to photo flo in my use. I've never noticed a drying mark yet. I am using sheet film however. One or two drops in water from a brita water filter and things come out nice, no foaming like I would get from photo flo. Just a thought
erik

 

[kevs]

Hi,

Have you checked that nothing (ie a dripping shower-head) is dripping down onto the film after you've hung it to dry? Hard water would probably dry to leave a deposit in this case. Try hanging film elsewhere, like a kitchen.

If you aren't fixing long enough, you'll have lighter areas on your film that may look 'milky'. Fix for longer, and make sure your fixer is fresh.

The only other thing I can think of is that there's grease or oil in your wetting agent.

Good luck with it.

 

[DannL]

Drying marks . . . what are those? I use Kodak Photo-Flo 200 mixed as per the instructions in a fresh gallon of distilled water. I never mix less than a full gallon. I guess that's about 18ml or .5 oz of Photo-Flo to the gallon. For roll films: I pour the mixture in a small shallow tray. I remove the roll film from the reel and hold it by both ends, emulsion side up. I then float the lowest hanging part of the film on the Photo-Flo/water mixture until it sinks just below the surface. Don't let the film touch the bottom of the tray. (a glass bowl may work better for some folks). Raise and lower the ends of the film strip as required to soak the entire strip thoroughly, end to end. Hang and let dry. Discard the mixture after use. I also use the same basic procedure with sheet films up to 8x10, resulting in no spots or drying marks.

 

[mrred]

Last week-end I surprised myself and read the photo-flo bottle. 200:1 was the recommended amount. That's 1.5 ml per 300 ml (1 roll Patterson tank). I was going by the "drop rule" too and it is *really* not enough. My problems went away quick.

 

[Ian David]

I process my roll films in a small tank. I used to sometimes have drying marks but am now free of them. I used to do my final wash (with photoflo) in the same tank, but these days I prefer to keep the wetting agent out of my tank (and I don't like the possibility of the photoflo solution even starting to dry while the films are still on the reels - I live in a hot climate here). My personal process is:

1. Fix and wash films in the tank in the ordinary way - no photoflo;
2. Take film off reel and see-saw the film a few times through a well-mixed mixture of distilled water, Kodak Photoflo (just a few drops) and 100% isopropyl alcohol (just a splash) in a flat plastic dish (eg a plastic lunchbox) (this step is largely courtesy of Les McLean - B&W Photography magazine, issue 85, top of page 68 if you are interested). Keep the emulsion side up during this process so that it does not come into contact with the sides or bottom of the dish;
3. Hang film to dry with a weighted clip on the bottom end;
4. Examine the hanging wet film carefully - the emulsion side should have a smooth matte finish, with no visible droplets or rivulets of water whatsoever. If there are droplets or rivulets on the emulsion side, the washing solution or duration is not quite right.

I try to keep all of my processes as simple as possible. I do not personally find I need to do the 45 degree thing...
I do however find that 1:200 photoflo is too much (perhaps it depends to some extent on local climate and water quality)

Good luck with it!
Ian

 

[synj00]

Just washed using the 16 drop method and as the above poster noted the emulsion side is not quite right, there are tiny droplets. So back to the drawing board, I'll try it with no photo flo and see what happens.

Going to give all my containers a good wash here as well.

 

[Tim Gray]

I just want to clarify that the 16 drops works for me because that's what I empirically arrived at. More than that left photoflo scum on my negatives, less than that left water marks. Before I moved to this apartment, I really didn't do anything special and used tap water and was fine. So depending on your water quality, you might have to adjust things a bit.

I think at one point with MY dropper, I measured about 10 drops/ml. 16oz of water is 473 ml, so 16 drops in there for me is about 300:1. That's pretty close to the recommended dilution of 200:1, but a bit less. So for me, the amount of drops I use is pretty close to the directed dilution, and it lets me make it up in small batches which is nice.

Note they also make a Photoflo 600 which is supposed to be diluted 600:1 I think.

 

[David William White]

The reason for my vigorous washing method was because of the purple tint never quite being washed out (solved with hypo clear) and the darn marks in the first place. I am currently using 4 minutes of Kodak Rapid Fixer with 10 seconds of agitation every minute. Its a new batch as well and am getting the same marks from the last batch as well. Good thought though. So incomplete fixing can also lead to stuff on the emulsion side? At this point I'm willing to try anything and may mix up some regular fixer.

Film base tint is natural and nothing to worry about -- don't go nuts trying to get rid of it.

Incomplete fixing will leave some unexposed & undeveloped emulsion which appears as fog (not so bad) to grey sludge (much worse). Four minutes in fresh fixer (mixed properly) should be sufficient to remove the unneeded emulsion, but the proof is actually in the pudding. I usually fix longer, for what it's worth.

If you want to do a test to confirm/deny insufficient fixing, refix in fresh fixer. Just dunk the film into your fixer jug or tray and fish it out in 10 minutes and do a simple wash with Photo-Flo and see if it looks clearer.

D.

 

[srs5694]

Yeah I was thinking about going to glass bottles for the chemicals too. I am currently using the brown plastic gallon jugs and thoroughly wash them with scalding hot water but maybe its not enough.

"Brown plastic gallon jugs" sounds like the sort that are sold by photographic suppliers. For some reason, those always seem to be made of HDPE, which according to Ryuji Suzuki (see here) is a poor choice for developer storage because it's too permeable to gas. I don't know if HDPE might absorb chemicals or otherwise be a potential source for your drying-mark problem, though. In any event, switching to glass or to PET plastic seems like a good idea, at least for developers.

That said, I mostly use glass, and it sometimes gets pretty scummy/filmy looking after something's been stored in it a while. Sometimes the scum/film can be removed by vigorous cleaning, but sometimes I just replace the bottle. I sometimes see residue in the plastic bottles that contain chemical concentrates, so I think this is a matter of the chemicals, not the container. In any event, I figure that scummy/filmy residues on bottles can, at best, be neutral to the developing process, and could conceivably harm it, so it's best to avoid such bottles.

 

[Anscojohn]

Synj00,
Are you sure it is the final rinse? With some film developers with a high sulfite concentrate and with hard water for the developer, a scum can be left on the film which is not noticeable until the film is dry. One of these developers is my standby, D23 and EK advises a fresh stop bath as a preventive. Do you use a stop bath; or just a water rinse between developer and fixer?

 

[PHOTOTONE]

OK, back in my youth I too had drying problems. Not anymore. I have a couple of Photo Sponges. While the film is soaking in Photo-flo, I soak the sponges in water to get them very soft, I wring out, dip the sponges in the photo-flo before I dump it, wring them out again, and after hanging the film in my drying cabinet, I gently squeegee the film (roll or sheets) between the sponges to remove excess moisture. My film has dried blemish free for 30 years now. This is all done very gently.

 

[tim_bessell]

Synj00,
Are you sure it is the final rinse? With some film developers with a high sulfite concentrate and with hard water for the developer, a scum can be left on the film which is not noticeable until the film is dry. One of these developers is my standby, D23 and EK advises a fresh stop bath as a preventive. Do you use a stop bath; or just a water rinse between developer and fixer?

Yes, John has hit it on the old nail head. In fact, I can say for sure that Xtol needs an acid stop or it will leave a scum on the film. I don't think this scum looks like drying marks, but you didn't say anything about the rest of your process.

FWIW, I find that some films need photo flo and some don't. For instance, Arista APHS needs only my tap water (pH around 8.2) and never a drying mark. Some mat finished films like Foma 100, Efke PL 50, need photo flo to get an evenly mat surface. I think that is the reason you get so many answers to the solution (pun intended) of final rinse. Not all film is the same, or home darkroom processing workflow for that matter.

 

[tim_bessell]

... and I am with the Photo-Flo 200 drop crowd. Three drops per liter of my tap water.

 

[nickandre]

You're getting drying marks WITH distilled water? There's nothing in there! I've had minimal problems with a gallon of filtered tap water 1-2 small capfulls of photo flo. These probably equal 1 teaspoon total. I will often dilute this further as well, maybe 1:1. The only problems are with too much photo flo, and even these marks typically only on the base can be removed easily with a damp towel. Try this, keep diluting your photo flo down. As long as when you pull the film out you have nice even spread of water you should have enough. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

[synj00]

Hey thanks so much for everyone chiming in.

The rest of my process is just good old D-76 1+1, about a min of water as a stop bath and kodak rapid fixer for 4 mins.

You're getting drying marks WITH distilled water? There's nothing in there!

Yeah this is the frustrating part. At least it is a solvable problem and has to do with photography instead of a busted air conditioner like last week haha!

so far theres a few variables to try

- cleaning out my chem containers
- replacing photo flo it is quite old and could have been contaminated
- seems to be worse with ilford emulsions (acros seems to be very much less noticeable)
- try using only distilled water for all processing
- try using completely fresh chems
- cleaning tank and reels

Oh also one more thing I thought of. I've been using a single plastic measuring cup to measure out both dev / fixer /hypo with a good wash in between each step. Could that be contributing? I'll give it a good wash too.

 

[dancqu]

Synj00,
Are you sure it is the final rinse? With some film developers
with a high sulfite concentrate and with hard water for the
developer, a scum can be left on the film which is not
noticeable until the film is dry.

Along the same line, from fix to wash water. Not well known
is the insolubility of some combinations of elements and the
silver thiosulfate complex. Those insoluble combinations
can form on or in the film's emulsion. Either way they
may be scene as a surface fog or water marks.

I always recommend that the FIRST rinse be of known pure
water. That is especially true for fixers as they become
more loaded with the silver thiosulfate complex. Dan

 

[patricia de roeck]

This method fixed my drying mark problems - I use an old Paterson tank - holds about 400 ml and use 2ml of Fotoflow in tap water filtered through a coffee filter - I make sure its well mixed and by the end of the film processing there should be no bubbles on the surface - if there are I skim them off. Then gently lower the reel with film into the Fotoflow and leave for 30 secs - gently lift out, attach a clip to the top and bottom and hang straight down in the shower. I never use any agitation at all to avoid those air bubbles - works like a charm.
Patricia