Drying Marks are "drying me nuts" !

Bob Carnie · Aug 8, 2017

I think if you are putting your reels into the photo flow this is the problem.. I take the film off each reel and dip it up and down and with one swoop bring the film top to bottom on an angle and immediately hang the film in the dryer.

bvy said:
On the reels.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 8, 2017

Doremus Scudder said:
Just to make sure, since your description has me a bit confused: Your last (very last) solution before hanging the film to dry should be Photo Flo mixed with distilled water. It sounds to me like you're adding an additional distilled water soak after the Photo Flo, thereby negating its benefits.

If your Photo Flo is working correctly, there should be absolutely no droplets on the surface of the film at all, on either side. If you have droplets on your film, you'll end up with marks caused by uneven drying rates which look very similar to what you have posted. Make sure the water on your negatives is one continuous sheet that slowly drains down to a corner. Adjust your dilution till you get this reliably. You want the minimum amount of Photo Flo needed to do this.

If you have very hard water, you may have to extend your time in the final Photo Flo/distilled water rinse to ensure that enough mineral is leached out of the emulsion to prevent mineral deposits. Five minutes is not too long. Use fresh solution each time and a large enough volume as well.

Don't be so adamant about not removing water from your film. Yes, film squeegees are scratching monstrosities, but there are alternatives. I've gently stripped water off of every negative I've developed in the last 30+ years by squeegeeing the film between clean index and middle fingers. Never a scratch and never a water spot.

Best,

Doremus

Yes, the two-finger squeegee-method works well for me too; unless you have extremely harsh skin from for example working in the building-trade it will work for you too.

MJLangdon · Aug 8, 2017

I used to have the same problem, even after using photo flo. I now run a cold tap into the tank and let it over flow at low speed for 5 mins after the fixing stage, I then use 250ml of hypo clearing agent to 750ml @ 20 c agitating for 2 mins (this can be reused many times), then I water wash for another 5 mins, then I soak in 5ml of photo flo to 995 ml water @ 20c for 5 mins (this can be reused many times) , then I hang up in front of an open window on film clips hanging on a clothes horse until dry. I always get 100% clean negs now, no need to dry the film with paper towel or anything else.

Hope this helps.

esearing · Aug 8, 2017

I've never had an issue with photo-flo and my 500ml bottle is about 20 years old now. I put 2 or 3 drops of photo flo in a 500ml tank filled with water, shake the hell out of it to form bubbles so it coats the film , blast it under the sinks faucet to overflow the bubbles then dump the tank , sometimes I give a quick rinse if bubbles persist on the film. Hang up film - no drying marks. Works with 35mm using weighted bottom clips and 4x5 sheets hung diagonally

mshchem · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
I'm

I'm actually thinking coffee filters.

My friend Howard Horan, who has been at this professionally for 40+ years. More than once Howard has told me "Bad Breath and Impure Thoughts Will Scratch Film!" his routine is to use LFN in darn good city water, with the film on a SS reel. He then unspools the film, hangs it. And then from his secret stash, he produces Premier Photowipes. A old school version of Kimwipes, he carefully wipes the non-emulsion side. Lets the negatives hang for a while then puts them in a drying cabinet fan only.

Me I just use RO water, photo flo and hang undisturbed to air dry. Squeegees are damn risky. I get the best results when I don't even touch the film, I hook a SS film clip onto the film while it is still on the reel and pull the film off using the clip. I walk it over hang it from a hook and put another clip on the bottom and walk away.
Howard wears disposable powder free gloves while processing.You might want to try some gloves.
Best Mike

MattKing · Aug 8, 2017

mshchem said:
I hook a SS film clip onto the film while it is still on the reel and pull the film off using the clip.

I really like this idea!

Maris · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
...I'm still getting drying marks on my film. I use Photo-Flo at the recommended dilution mixed with distilled water. I soak for one minute. Also, my last rinse cycle is with distilled water. I shake the film while on the reel to remove excess water. I hang the film vertically (but I get marks top and bottom)...

The last liquid that the film encounters should be Photo-Flo solution that is not too concentrated. I use 1+1000 or thereabouts. Less is better than more as long as there is some foaming effect. Distilled water as a final rinse is bad. It has too much surface tension to flow freely off film. It wants to form droplets and blobs. A drop of distilled water evaporating on film emulsion can leave a drying mark because of the differential stresses set up in the emulsion as it physically shrinks from swollen (wet) to thin (dry).

A low surface tension Photo-Flo solution wants to flatten out to an ultra-thin layer that can evaporate without stressing the emulsion and leaving marks. In practice a film hung from a foamy Photo-Flo soak will have clumps of bubbles sliding down it under the force of gravity. At the same time as this some foam bubbles are breaking and evaporating. The critical thing is that the foam has to slide off the film before the foam dries. If it dries on the film then marks are a certainty. One way to get the foam bubbles off the film is to use a squeegee. But I reckon I have a better non-squeegee method. This what I do:

After the film on the processing reels has soaked in Photo-Flo I take it off the reels, attach film hanging clips top and bottom, hold the film so it is vertical, and pour a generous quantity of Photo-Flo solution on the top clip to get a fast flow down the film. Then I take a film clip in each hand, hold the film taut and edge on and keep it at a 45 degree angle. Now those foam bubbles only have to flow down an inch or so to the lower edge of the film and get off the picture area. By way of contrast a 35mm film hung vertically needs that the last bubbly blob of Photo-Flo to travel down 5 foot 3 inches before it gets off the last negative and before it dries out. The 45 degree technique always works for me and it ensures than even if a Photo-Flo bubble should dry on the film it will be on the edge and not on the picture area.

ROGERC · Aug 8, 2017

There are so many ways to properly prep and dry your film, everyone has their own technique. And, there is no magic way to do it, just whatever works for you.

A couple of drops of Photoflo 200 (the 200 means dilute it 1 part Photoflo to 200 parts water) in the tank after washing, shake it to make it foam up some and wet the film with Photoflo, which is essentially 'soap' in that it breaks down the surface tension of the water and makes the water sheet off the film cleanly.

UH, DO NOT substitute soap, it has a lot of junk in it which is not film-friendly.

Note: This is one place where LESS is better than too much. If you put in too much Photoflo or other wetting agent, you can leave a coating behind which is virtually impossible to remove, so go easy on the Photoflo, at 1:200 dilution, it does not take much to over do it.

I pull the film off the reel, run it between my index and middle finger which acts like a squeegee blade, and should remove most of the water. Hang it up to dry in a dust free place and you are done.

I have been partial to a Paterson bladed squeegee, but they are getting harder to find and fingers seem to do OK.

A note about wetting agents. Photoflo 200 is now only available from Kodak as a 16-oz bottle, which by the 200 dilution rule makes up 3200 oz (200x16) of wetting solution - a lot to use up even for a heavy user.

I now use Edwal LFN (Low Foaming Negative) wetting agent, available in a small bottle (1 oz?) and is very convenient to use, 2-3 drops in a tank, shake as above...

The action of both is good, but it is easier to handle the drop bottle.

Kodak also used to make (or maybe still makes) a Photoflo 600, which is super-concentrated (1:600) and was used in large labs for doing huge film runs.

The "ocean shore" residue effect you see on your film is likely due to impurities dissolved in the water and left behind like a high tide mark when the water evaporated and left the 'muck' behind. Normally, distilled water in the final rinse should get rid of it but do your best to keep 'puddles' of water on the film surface off to help eliminate the shore line.

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

Folks, I'm saying my last "rinse" cycle is with distilled water, not my last bath. Just wanted to clarify.

Good ideas and information thus far. I'm hesitant to change too many variables at once though. So I'm thinking a longer rinse (or more rinses) with distilled water and diluting the Photo Flo even more (1+800 maybe).

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

So it's no good unless it's visibly foaming while on the film?

aparat · Aug 8, 2017

I had to deal with the problem every time I changed my film developing setups (usually following moving houses). The usual advice works well, but doesn't guarantee spotless negatives. Using distilled water and a small quantity of a wetting agent can be very helpful, but the key, in my experience, is the rate at which water evaporates.

Currently, I use a film drying cabinet, which I built around an Omega film drying unit. It uses warm or cool (HEPA-filtered) air and creates positive pressure for a completely dust-free environment. I found that if I turn the fan on right away, I am likely to have some, very minor water spots. However, if I let the film hang without squeegeeing, with the fan off, for a few minutes, and then turn on the fan, I am going to get negatives free of water spots. It took me a while (around a dozen different conditions) to arrive at this setup. I tested Edwal LFN and Kodak Photo-Flo, with tap water and distilled water. In the end, it doesn't matter if I use tap water or distilled water, as long as I use the appropriate (i.e., as directed) amount of wetting agent in the final bath.

Patrick Robert James · Aug 9, 2017

I use a paper towel, Bounty. I don't even use distilled water anymore. Just take the film out of the wash, hang it up, then I drag a half folded paper towel lightly over the film. You only need one wipe this way. I used to use Kimwipes, but they required several passes. The paper towels are designed to pick up water. I have been doing it this way for years now. No problems at all. No scratches, no lint, no water spots. Skip the extra steps with the PhotoFlo. It is just a waste of time.

Harry Stevens · Aug 9, 2017

The only time I have ever managed to 100% eradicated water marks is when I hang my negatives on the washing line in a shady warm summer breeze, the usual bathroom hanging always results in some water marks. I have never tried the paper towel method but will do next time.

bvy · Aug 9, 2017

More good advice and thank you...

But I really want to talk about foam. Should the Photo-Flo solution (regardless of dilution) foam up when prepared? I thought the idea was to stir it up gently to avoid too much foam. It's been suggested now that I should see foam running down the film, and also (contradictorily?) that the solution should appear as one continuous sheet on the film.

ROGERC · Aug 9, 2017

"It's no good unless it foams?"

No, that's not it, it is a surfactant, reduces water tension and by its nature it tends to foam when shaken (not stirred).

Using a paper towel (Bounty) to wipe down the film when wet may tend to leave small paper particles behind, which adhere to the wet gelatin on the film and once in the gelatin layer, it is 'stuck for life'.

If you dilute the Photoflo too much, it won't be 'strong enough' to do any good. The 2-3 drop rule in a tank is usually fine.

Surfactant Definition: Surfactant is the word that combines the terms "surface active agent". Chemical species that acts as wetting agents to lower the surface tension of a liquid and allow for increased spreadability. This can be at a liquid-liquid interface or a liquid-gas interface.

Also Known As: tenside

Examples: coating on the surface of the alveoli in the lungs

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
I think if you are putting your reels into the photo flow this is the problem.. I take the film off each reel and dip it up and down and with one swoop bring the film top to bottom on an angle and immediately hang the film in the dryer.

Me too.

bvy · Aug 9, 2017

Does the film actually need to "soak" in the Photo-Flo? Or can it just be pulled through it, poured on, etc.?

Bob Carnie · Aug 9, 2017

bvy said:
Does the film actually need to "soak" in the Photo-Flo? Or can it just be pulled through it, poured on, etc.?

I use about three dips in the 1000ml beaker which is on the floor , my last dip I bring the film right into the dryer, I also have the top clip on the end of the film for speed sakes.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2017

bvy said:
Does the film actually need to "soak" in the Photo-Flo? Or can it just be pulled through it, poured on, etc.?

30m seconds in the solution is enough. I usually wait one minute.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 10, 2017

bvy said:
Does the film actually need to "soak" in the Photo-Flo? Or can it just be pulled through it, poured on, etc.?

It depends what you are using the final distilled water/Photo Flo rinse for. If you just need the effect of the surfactant, then 30 seconds or so is just fine. If, like me however, you want to use the final rinse to help leach out minerals still in the emulsion from the hard water you used to wash the film in, then you'll need to extend the time so the distilled water can do it's job and absorb minerals from the emulsion till equilibrium is reached. Of course, you could do this as a separate step just before the Photo Flo: 5 min.+ distilled water soak with agitation followed by a 30 second bath in Photo Flo. I just combine the steps.

Back to your original problem: the things that cause "drying marks" are various. Even distilled water droplets on the emulsion will cause drying marks because the emulsion dries at different rates, stressing it and causing areas of increased density around the outside of the droplets. That's why you need Photo Flo. Minerals dissolved in the water (including salts from water-softening systems) will be left behind as the film dries, leaving scale deposits. That's why you need a longer distilled water bath if you have water with lots of dissolved minerals. Too much Photo-Flo or whatever in the final rinse will also leave scum and deposits. That's why you need to mix your wetting agent at recommended dilution or a bit weaker. Just be sure you're not mixing it too weak; otherwise the sheeting action won't work and you'll have water droplets. Leaving too much water on the film with wetting agent in it, especially if it collects unevenly, will cause marks for the same reason. That's why it's a good idea to get as much water off the film as possible before hanging it up to dry. Sure, if your wetting agent is working well, the water should run down and drip off. However, I like to squeegee between my (clean and smooth) fingers before hanging and then blot the corners of the film a few times during the first minutes of hanging to remove the water that collects there.

Really, this is just an engineering problem. Get all the variables right and you'll not have a problem with drying marks any longer.

Best,

Doremus

bvy · Aug 10, 2017

@Doremus Scudder - Thanks. I am concerned now that I'm not getting the rinse water completely out of the film.

I think the changes I make will be as follows:

- Rinse as usual, with final rinse cycle (and a short soak) in distilled water.
- Prepare Photo Flo solution with distilled water at 1+400.
- Increase soak time in Photo Flo solution from one to five minutes.
- Hang film to dry and wipe excess water off of base side of film with finger (squeegee like action, one long stroke).

Doremus Scudder · Aug 11, 2017

And double-check to make sure your Photo Flo dilution is doing the job. You should see no droplets, just a sheet of water on the negs. Any droplets and you should increase the strength of your dilution.

Best,

Doremus

RalphLambrecht · Aug 11, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
I think if you are putting your reels into the photo flow this is the problem.. I take the film off each reel and dip it up and down and with one swoop bring the film top to bottom on an angle and immediately hang the film in the dryer.

that's what I do as ell.

brian steinberger · Aug 30, 2017

Bvy, let me make this easy for you. DITCH THE PHOTO-FLO!!!!

I was down this exact road a few years ago. Those marks are definitely from photo flo. I have a long thread on here about my problem. Same as yours. Many recommended I try a simple distilled water bath after wash. That's all it took. My procedure is simple. After wash I fill the tank with distilled water (I use target distilled water. Believe it or not I still got some marks from using Walmart distilled water), agitate 20 times then let sit for 1 minute. Dump and fill tank again with distilled water. Agitate 20 times, let sit for 1 minute. Tank out reel and tilt at 45 degree angle to let water drain. Take film off and hang in dust free area. Don't touch the film with anything! Just leave it alone. I built a film drying cabinet for this purpose to minimize dust and I never get any drying marks at all anymore.

You can keep messing around with photo flo if you like. I tried everything and always got marks with it. Sometimes the simplest way is the best!

wombat2go · Aug 30, 2017

The following method helps to eliminate water marks on C41.
The stabilizer solution is at 38C.
I pull the film out of spiral, and quickly hold one end in each hand,
keeping the film horizontal longitudinally and vertical laterally.
That is so drops can not run from one frame to the next.

Then I tap the edge of the film on the dry bench top.
Most of the water drops slide off and end up on the bench.
(Warm water is less viscous)
I keep tapping until the film looks to be dry enough so it won't form drops.
Then hang up vertically under the filtered air flow.

Drying Marks are "drying me nuts" !

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