Drying Marks are "drying me nuts" !

bvy · Aug 7, 2017

Yes, I use distilled water! Please let's eliminate the water quality variable straight off.

I'm still getting drying marks on my film. I use Photo-Flo at the recommended dilution mixed with distilled water. I soak for one minute. Also, my last rinse cycle is with distilled water. I shake the film while on the reel to remove excess water. I hang the film vertically (but I get marks top and bottom).

I've tried different dilutions of Photo-Flo -- 1+200, 1+300, 1+400, etc. I've tried Edwal LFN. Same thing. I could continue buying every wetting agent on the market, but I can't believe there's much difference between them once you've tried a couple. (Is there?)

The humidity in Pittsburgh this week is hovering around 80%. I could add some quantity of alcohol to the solution if the issue is slow drying times due to humid air. I have the 99% business on hand. Is there an authoritative resource on doing this? I find a lot of anecdotal support with suggestions ranging from 1% to 30%.

Sorry -- I refuse to squeegee the film in any way. Anyway, it would be an absolute last resort.

So what's going on here? Before trying something new, it would help to understand what's even causing the problem. This is from a misfire from a roll I just developed (HP5+). It illustrates the problem beautifully.

Mr Bill · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
So what's going on here? Before trying something new, it would help to understandable what's even causing the problem. This is from a misfire from a roll I just developed. It illustrates the problem beautifully.

This is a surface shot using reflected light I presume? (Not transmitted light?) And I am guessing that the light-colored wavy line follows the edges of what was once a standing droplet of water?

One possibility is that there was some sort of material in that droplet that deposited around the edges. If so, then obvious question is, can it be wiped off? If not, possible a differential drying mark?

If I were troubleshooting, I'd inspect carefully under high magnification, and maybe try another wash and dry cycle to see if it goes away. If you are getting standing droplets of water (in the test), perhaps try blotting them off (touching with the tip of a paper towel to "wick" the drop away) to see if this cures the problem.

In high volume commercial processing, we always strip the surface water off - this could be a mechanical squeegee (least desirable), an "air knife" (noisy), or a "rotary buffer" (best by far). And we would never ever get marks like this. But if the buffers were not kept scrupulously clean, we'd occasionally get a bit of a powdery residue they called "stabilizer scum," hence my question, "can you wipe it off?"

Ps, another question, did this used to happen to you when the RH was lower?
Pps, call me distrustful, but I'd probably put a bit of the distilled water on a "watch glass," those shallow dished covers for a beaker, or just a clean pick of glass, to let it evaporate. Then use a strong magnifier to see if it left any residue.

Europan · Aug 8, 2017

Look, I had and run a commercial lab. Processed miles of motion-picture, many roll, and a lot of sheet film. I wiped them all off and never had a mark. The best material to pull a film through, that’s what I do, is viscose sponge cloth. I also used chamois, soft goat leather, but that is too expensive. Don’t use a cloth for anything else than this purpose, keep it damp, wash it out well, and replace it after it’s got stained enough. If you happen to find white ones, buy those. You’ll be able to see residues in their true colour and conclude back to the quality of your work.

All the best!

FujiLove · Aug 8, 2017

I agree with a lot of the above: test the water, very carefully wipe the non-emulsion side etc.

Maybe also try hanging the film diagonally so any excess runs to the edge and not down the length of the film.

R.Gould · Aug 8, 2017

I agree with all the above, with 35mm wipe the back of the film with a folded paper towel wipe it max 3 times and no drying marks, done this for years, with 120 film I just shake it and hang it on the line in my darkroom, if you get drying marks on 120 film the use the paper towel

bernard_L · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
Sorry -- I refuse to squeegee the film in any way.

Agree. Same for me.

bvy said:
I shake the film while on the reel to remove excess water.

Do you also do that between the last tap water rinse and the final distilled water rinse?

FujiLove said:
Maybe also try hanging the film diagonally so any excess runs to the edge and not down the length of the film.

+1; that's part of my routine; worth trying

Just a thought: contamination (scum, sweat) flowing from the clips or your hands; especially in hot, humid weather. Try washing your hands just before taking the film off the reel. Mind you, I'm not suggesting your hands are filthy; it does not take much contamination to leave a drying mark.

Pat Erson · Aug 8, 2017

Cruzingoose said:
So simple to have no drying marks. If you look closely at your film hanging after whatever treatment you perform, you will notice on the front (non emulsion) side some water droplets. In the same place on the emulsion will stay wet longer than the rest of the emulsion. This is your water spot.

To fix this, after hanging your film, take a paper towel....

Another solution is to make sure there's little water left on the film before you hang it. I very gently shake the reel before I remove the film from it. Others put the still-on-the-reel film in a salad spinner and give it a few turns...

lantau · Aug 8, 2017

I remove the centre tube, put the spiral back in the tank and fill up with the final rinse. I remove the foam on top and pull out the spiral. Keeping it horizontal I open it and place the bottom part with the film back into the tank. Remove final traces of foam, grab the inner end of the film and pull it out in one smooth motion. I literally snakes out while gently running through the clear surface of the rinse solution. That way the liquid will drain in the best way possible (for me).

When I had some minor drying marks in the past I might have had too high a concentration of the surfactant. But by now it is working just fine with me. Though I have to admit that I haven't wet printed anything this year and the very minor drying marks I had in the past were not visible when digitising with the repro method. But I do look at my negatives and haven't noticed anything in a long time.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
Yes, I use distilled water! Please let's eliminate the water quality variable straight off.

I'm still getting drying marks on my film. I use Photo-Flo at the recommended dilution mixed with distilled water. I soak for one minute. Also, my last rinse cycle is with distilled water. I shake the film while on the reel to remove excess water. I hang the film vertically (but I get marks top and bottom).

I've tried different dilutions of Photo-Flo -- 1+200, 1+300, 1+400, etc. I've tried Edwal LFN. Same thing. I could continue buying every wetting agent on the market, but I can't believe there's much difference between them once you've tried a couple. (Is there?)

The humidity in Pittsburgh this week is hovering around 80%. I could add some quantity of alcohol to the solution if the issue is slow drying times due to humid air. I have the 99% business on hand. Is there an authoritative resource on doing this? I find a lot of anecdotal support with suggestions ranging from 1% to 30%.

Sorry -- I refuse to squeegee the film in any way. Anyway, it would be an absolute last resort.

So what's going on here? Before trying something new, it would help to understand what's even causing the problem. This is from a misfire from a roll I just developed (HP5+). It illustrates the problem beautifully.

View attachment 183976

use as little photo-flow as possible. I use 10% of recommended, yes 1 drop per film dev tank and as you distilled water as a last rinse.However ,I squeegee through two fingers after having from top to bottom.fingers don't scratch oil;at least mine don't.good luck!

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

@Mr Bill – Thanks for the thoughtful response. What you see is a scan of the negative, adjusted for contrast. Admittedly it doesn’t appear so dramatic when held to the light. The humidity here is lower in the winter, so maybe I’ll check my other notes to see if this a “summertime problem.”

@bernard_L – I empty the tank thoroughly after the last tap water rinse, but can’t say I remove the reels and shake them. My hands are clean, and I’m not a particularly greasy character (!). In any case, I go through some effort not to touch the film at all – maybe lift the edge from the reel just enough to get a metal clip on in it.

@RalphLambrecht – So that would 1+2000 for Photo Flo 200, right? That seems almost too little to be effective, but I’m willing to try it.

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

I did try removing the spots. I soaked this cut strip in distilled water for about 15 minutes, then tried a solution of Photo Flo (1+200) with 10% alcohol added (99%). The marks "softened" but didn't completely disappear.

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

Cruzingoose said:
If you look closely at your film hanging after whatever treatment you perform, you will notice on the front (non emulsion) side some water droplets. In the same place on the emulsion will stay wet longer than the rest of the emulsion. This is your water spot.

This might be the most revealing thing I've read. I would have no problem wiping the base side of the film, but I'm a little surprised to hear that the marks are forming on the base side -- or forming in the emulsion because the base side opposite is retaining water. Interesting.

bdial · Aug 8, 2017

If you aren't already, try a rinse in distilled after washing and before the photo-flo/wetting agent. I pre-mix my photo-flo in distilled, but I use a little more dilution than 1:200, it's more like 1:300.

As a last resort, try wiping the film especially if there are any areas with foam. Yes, it's a common cause of scratches, and it's best not to if you can avoid it (IMHO). But it is possible to do it without scratches if you're careful.

If you're photo-flo-ing on the reel in the tank (my usual), overfilling the tank so that any foam runs off the top may help too. And be gentle to avoid generating more foam.

Shaking the water off the reel/film, as suggested, will probably help too.

trendland · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
Yes, I use distilled water! Please let's eliminate the water quality variable straight off.

I'm still getting drying marks on my film. I use Photo-Flo at the recommended dilution mixed with distilled water. I soak for one minute. Also, my last rinse cycle is with distilled water. I shake the film while on the reel to remove excess water. I hang the film vertically (but I get marks top and bottom).

I've tried different dilutions of Photo-Flo -- 1+200, 1+300, 1+400, etc. I've tried Edwal LFN. Same thing. I could continue buying every wetting agent on the market, but I can't believe there's much difference between them once you've tried a couple. (Is there?)

The humidity in Pittsburgh this week is hovering around 80%. I could add some quantity of alcohol to the solution if the issue is slow drying times due to humid air. I have the 99% business on hand. Is there an authoritative resource on doing this? I find a lot of anecdotal support with suggestions ranging from 1% to 30%.

Sorry -- I refuse to squeegee the film in any way. Anyway, it would be an absolute last resort.

So what's going on here? Before trying something new, it would help to understand what's even causing the problem. This is from a misfire from a roll I just developed (HP5+). It illustrates the problem beautifully.

View attachment 183976

If you are using destilled water it is IMPOSSIBLE to have watermarks from
the water.
So call imedeately Sherloc Holms to find
oft from were it might be come from !

Perhaps we will manage it without Scotland Yard ?

1.) chemicals out of the film
2.) Your foto flow with to much concentration.

To avoid : First Action
- double washing time of your films
- half foto flow concentrate

If it will not work : Double And half Again.

If this all will not help we definitively need
Scotland Yard.

with regards

RalphLambrecht · Aug 8, 2017

bvy said:
@Mr Bill – Thanks for the thoughtful response. What you see is a scan of the negative, adjusted for contrast. Admittedly it doesn’t appear so dramatic when held to the light. The humidity here is lower in the winter, so maybe I’ll check my other notes to see if this a “summertime problem.”

@bernard_L – I empty the tank thoroughly after the last tap water rinse, but can’t say I remove the reels and shake them. My hands are clean, and I’m not a particularly greasy character (!). In any case, I go through some effort not to touch the film at all – maybe lift the edge from the reel just enough to get a metal clip on in it.

@RalphLambrecht – So that would 1+2000 for Photo Flo 200, right? That seems almost too little to be effective, but I’m willing to try it.

correct; it really doesn't need much; that's why a bottle lasts a lifetime and then some; not a high-profit product for Kodak for anyone else

JWMster · Aug 8, 2017

Watermarks beat squeegee streaks! I am thankful to have dropped the squeegee ...permanently. Yes, I had one watermark. Thank you for this thread ...so I can now address that.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 8, 2017

Just to make sure, since your description has me a bit confused: Your last (very last) solution before hanging the film to dry should be Photo Flo mixed with distilled water. It sounds to me like you're adding an additional distilled water soak after the Photo Flo, thereby negating its benefits.

If your Photo Flo is working correctly, there should be absolutely no droplets on the surface of the film at all, on either side. If you have droplets on your film, you'll end up with marks caused by uneven drying rates which look very similar to what you have posted. Make sure the water on your negatives is one continuous sheet that slowly drains down to a corner. Adjust your dilution till you get this reliably. You want the minimum amount of Photo Flo needed to do this.

If you have very hard water, you may have to extend your time in the final Photo Flo/distilled water rinse to ensure that enough mineral is leached out of the emulsion to prevent mineral deposits. Five minutes is not too long. Use fresh solution each time and a large enough volume as well.

Don't be so adamant about not removing water from your film. Yes, film squeegees are scratching monstrosities, but there are alternatives. I've gently stripped water off of every negative I've developed in the last 30+ years by squeegeeing the film between clean index and middle fingers. Never a scratch and never a water spot.

Best,

Doremus

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

bdial said:
If you aren't already, try a rinse in distilled after washing and before the photo-flo/wetting agent. I pre-mix my photo-flo in distilled, but I use a little more dilution than 1:200, it's more like 1:300.

As a last resort, try wiping the film especially if there are any areas with foam. Yes, it's a common cause of scratches, and it's best not to if you can avoid it (IMHO). But it is possible to do it without scratches if you're careful.

If you're photo-flo-ing on the reel in the tank (my usual), overfilling the tank so that any foam runs off the top may help too. And be gentle to avoid generating more foam.

Shaking the water off the reel/film, as suggested, will probably help too.

Thanks. I covered most of that in my first post. There's little if any foam -- I mix it gently but I wonder if in mixing it gently, I'm not mixing it thoroughly enough. I didn't think it needed much (20 to 30 seconds gentle stirring?). Also, my example shown was with a 1+300 dilution. I do soak on the reels with just a few lifts and drops of the reel in the solution as initial agitation...

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

Doremus Scudder said:
It sounds to me like you're adding an additional distilled water soak after the Photo Flo, thereby negating its benefits.

No. Several tap water rinses, distilled water rinse, Photo Flo solution, hang to dry.

Doremus Scudder said:
Don't be so adamant about not removing water from your film.

I'm adamant about not touching wet film; I'll do what I have to short of that to remove the water. Having said that, I'm willing and interested in wiping the base side free of water, but I don't want to touch the emulsion. I'll hold out hope till the end that it's possible to dry film cleanly without touching the emulsion!

The water here is hard. Maybe I'll try a longer distilled water soak before going into the Photo Flo.

Bob Carnie · Aug 8, 2017

Are you putting the reels in the photoflow and then hanging... or are you taking the film and manually dipping the film through the photo flow and quickly hanging the film?

R.Gould · Aug 8, 2017

Never touch the emulsion side with anything, I learn't that many years ago, but I was taught the trick of removing the water with a paper towel from both an Uncle of mine, from whom I learnt my love of B/W [hotography, and a very good friend who was a pre digital professional photographer, I have done so with 35mm after the final soak in wetting agent.NOT Photo flo, which I dislike, for many years now with no drying marks and no scratches make a pad of the towel, wipe the base side of the film with one side, then turn the pad over and wipe carefully twice more with the film hanging, works every time
Richard

MattKing · Aug 8, 2017

A lint free cloth is probably better than a paper towel.

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 8, 2017

Squeegees are not good for wiping film, but I use these lint free Trader Joe's kitchen cloths and I don't have problems with drying marks. I think the marks come from excess water on your film.
https://www.ebay.com/i/172626273957?chn=ps&dispItem=1

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Are you putting the reels in the photoflow and then hanging... or are you taking the film and manually dipping the film through the photo flow and quickly hanging the film?

On the reels.

bvy · Aug 8, 2017

I'm

MattKing said:
A lint free cloth is probably better than a paper towel.

I'm actually thinking coffee filters.

Drying Marks are "drying me nuts" !

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