Drydown reference

Rich Ullsmith

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Wondering if anybody knows if there's a reference out there, somewhere, that gives drydown compensation for fiber papers. You'd think they'd have it on the data sheets, but I have never seen it. I don't work with any one paper long enough to really fine tune it, so I generally just dial in 5%. It would be nice to see a compilation from folks who get to know a paper particularly well, something like the developing times on unblinkingeye.com. If anybody knows if such a list exists, I'd love to hear about it.
 

JHannon

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Bruce Barlow did an excellent series of tests on paper/developer combinations and some drydown information here:

Dead Link Removed

He uses Dextol for the tests. There are three pdf files of the tests.

I hope it helps.

--John
 

Les McLean

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Rich, fibre papers can dry down as much as 11%. I have tested every paper that I have used for the past 20 years and have found drydown can vary from 8% to as high as 11%. The test is easily done and takes about 2 hours and I would recommend that you carry out your own test. I published an article on how to calculate the drydown for fibre papers here on APUG some time ago.
 

MurrayMinchin

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Here's the article Les is talking about;

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

A simple test that pays huge dividends. I buy my paper several times a year and test every new batch, just in case it's been 'improved'. The excess gets popped in the freezer for later use.

Murray
 
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Rich Ullsmith

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And thanks for your work, Les. I'm putting a copy of that down in the darkroom.
 

pauledell

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Rich:
Ever try zapping the wet print in a microwave for maybe 20 seconds, just
enough to dry it substantially. This is not for the final print but it might give
you an idea what effect drydown will have.

Paul
 

MattKing

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For all those who recommend using a microwave to dry the print, do I assume correctly that this advice is for FB prints only?

For those of us who use more RC paper, is it even safe to use the microwave?

Matt
 

AlanC

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I think it's worth pointing out that factoring in dry down is not a guaranteed way to make prints with glowing highlights. After all, anyone can subtract 10percent off the final print time. Even I can do it and I'm hopeless at maths!
The real difficulty is to decide in the first place what that final print time will be. This requires real judgement. You need to be able to decide just what you want the finished print to look like,and be aware of other factors such as the strength of the dakroom viewing light. Even varying the viewing distance can change the look of the print.
Hands up everyone who factors in dry down but still ends up with prints that are too dark.
(you can't see it but my hand is up!)

Alan Clark
 

pauledell

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Matt

You are probably correct about RC paper in a microwave. I might suggest using a portable hair dryer set at a lower heat setting for RC paper. That
seems to work for examinig the print. Again, I would not recommend it for
final prints.

Paul
 

filmnut

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I always use a hair dryer (usually on high, as I'm too impatient to wait!) after a quick wash, to dry a test strip, then I look at it under various lighting conditions. I usually display my prints under fairly bright lights, so I use something close to the final viewing conditions to judge my test print, then adjust accordingly, if req'd. This is mostly for fibre, as I find the dry down on the RC paper isn't as much but sometimes its' necessary if its' a tricky subject.
If I'm making changes, or printing other very similar negs, I'll put the test in a tray of water near my fix, so that I've got a ready reference for what I want, and its' wet, so I don't have to guess as much.
Keith
 

Les McLean

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filmnut said:
If I'm making changes, or printing other very similar negs, I'll put the test in a tray of water near my fix, so that I've got a ready reference for what I want, and its' wet, so I don't have to guess as much.
Keith
Click to expand...

Keith, spend a couple of hours testing your papers for drydown and you'll never have to go through the process you describe above ever again. I started testing for drydown about 25 years ago and check out the drydown of the current papers I use perhaps once every year.
 

JHannon

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Les, do you find that the drydown value varies much from batch to batch of the same paper?
 

Dave Miller

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Just for the record R/C prints are not effected by drydown as they do not shrink on drying, although a wet print will look different to a dry one.
 

Les McLean

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JHannon said:
Les, do you find that the drydown value varies much from batch to batch of the same paper?
Click to expand...


I have not found that to be the case John, for example Ilford Warmtone Fibre had a drydown of 11% when Ilford first introduced it. The last time I tested it about 12 months ago it was still 11%. I have been tempted many times to publish my drydown figures but the test is so simple that I believe that it is best for everyone to do it and arrive at their own conclusions.
 

JHannon

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Thanks Les!
 

pentaxuser

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Dave Miller said:
Just for the record R/C prints are not effected by drydown as they do not shrink on drying, although a wet print will look different to a dry one.
Click to expand...

Dave. That's what I had always assumed and yet I have just looked at the article mentioned in Circle of the Sun and he mentions Ilford Cooltone RC at 7% and Kodak(RIP) Polycontrast IV RC at 8%. I think all the others on the list are FB.

So is this valid and is there a way of accounting for drydown in exactly the sem way as for FB? Clearly there is a difference between a wet and dry print but I can't say that I had spotted the dry down effect with RC. Maybe that's because I wasn't looking for it or my printer's eye is still at early apprentice level.

On the other hand if RC prints are effected by it then knowing what to do about it may be worthwhile. At 7 and 8% respectively it seems hardly to be inconsequential. At least not in Dektol. Maybe with Ilford Developer it is inconsequential.

It goes without saying that others with first hand knowledge should please feel free to speak as well.

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

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The Polymax RC N surface I am using (until it is gone) definitely dries darker. I don't know if the effect is due to something different then the dry down effect experienced when using FB papers, but it certainly is obvious.

Matt
 

Mick Fagan

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I have been using copious amounts of RC paper, mainly Ilford MGIV Pearl; I find that there is a very slight dry down effect.

The way the print is dried also has an effect, slight, but still there.

I have a heated RC paper, roller dryer, which means I have a wet to dry 8x10 print in about 34 seconds. Prints dried this way seem to retain their luminosity better, I cannot explain it any other way.

When I hang wet prints up to dry and then compare an air dried print with a Roller heater dried print, the force dried print wins out by a poofteenth. The force dried prints seem to have a slight sparkle, that is only available in an air dried print by pulling exposure by 1/12 of a stop.

In my own darkroom with my current MGIV RC paper stock, I know I need to pull a wet print by 1/16 of a stop if it is going to be air dried.

When doing large batch printing, which can be anything from 20 to 500 or more prints off the same neg, I keep a print under water in a dish, so I can do a quick running check after another load of prints have hit the fixer.

I quickly pull the reference print out with my left hand and pull one of the latest prints out with tongs, then check them side by side.

Mick.
 

Dave Miller

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With respect to R/C prints I accept that there is a visual difference between wet and dry prints, more so with matt than gloss finishes. As with FB paper we print for the effect seen on a dry paper; unless we intend displaying our work in the shower.
Because it is so quick to dry R/C paper it had never occurred to me that anyone would want to compare a wet R/C print with a dry one. With FB and it's much longer drying time the problem is real; unless one resorts to frying one's paper in a microwave we are left, at the very best, trying to compare a damp print with a dry one. The method of drying FB, as with R/C will also have a marked effect on the finished print, so as ever consistency is needed to achieve the results you are happy with.
 

Mick Fagan

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Dave, I agree with you. Another interesting thing I have done (and occasionally still do) is to run a fibre based paper through a paper dryer without the heater on.

Very interesting way of accelerating the drying procedure.

I did for a while live in a house with a clothes washing machine that had a set of rollers on top for running clothes through. I used to run my test prints through that first, then hold the print in front of a radiator to dry. I didn't have a hair dryer and in fact I didn't know of anyone outside of a hairdresser owning a hair dryer at the time.

I ensured that the landlady never knew about the clothes roller being used that way!

Mick.
 

MattKing

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Mick and Dave:

Thanks for this information, it is very interesting.

All my prints are air dried. I'll have to try borrowing my wife's hair dryer .

I really do see a change when the PolyMax prints go from damp, to dry.

I have some Ilford MGIV RC in Pearl to try out, for when the PolyMax is finished. I'll have to experiment a bit, and see if the effect is similar, or distinctly different.

Matt
 

fschifano

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MattKing said:
For all those who recommend using a microwave to dry the print, do I assume correctly that this advice is for FB prints only?

For those of us who use more RC paper, is it even safe to use the microwave?

Matt
Click to expand...

Yes, the microwave is fine for FB prints, but not so good for RC prints. I use a hair dryer for RC. They dry quickly that way. The finish of some RC papers can suffer a small loss of quality if you run it too hot for too long, so I don't use it for final prints.
 

panastasia

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AA talked about how wonderful the microwave was for quick drying test strips in his book THE PRINT (or it was 40 PHOTOGRAPHS, I can't remember which book). He said one photo he printed for many years was finally printed to his satisfaction after much trial and error, making small adjustments, using a microwave for quick results. I believe the only problem with RC prints would be the curl.... which wouldn't matter if you're only drying test strips. I only print FB, so I can't offer anything more.

A hair dryer set on low sounds like a good alternative - when you heat a print in a press, it's similar - RC (plastic) prints are more easily damaged by excessive heat.

Regards, Paul
 

psvensson

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I print RC exclusively, and air-dry. The drydown is substantial on all of them, and similar to the percentages quoted here for fiber - 5-10 percent. Unfortunately, if the test print is right on the minimum exposure for good shadows, decreasing exposure to compensate for drydown will yield a print that doesn't reach Dmax. It seems to me the proper way to adjust for drydown is really to raise contrast to make the highlights lighter, not reduce overall exposure.
 
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