Dry plates in Pyro

[Nodda Duma]

Hey folks, has anybody successfully developed dry plates in pyro? How did they turn out? Someone asked me about using pyro but I personally haven’t tried it.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Ian Grant]

Depends on what you mean by Pyro. At one time most pre-WWII boxes of Dry plates (here in the UK) often came with a couple of developer formulae on the box lid. One was usually a Pyrogallol based developer the other an MQ developer.

The Pyro developer was a lot stronger than the modern types like PMK, Pyrocat, etc and development times were short typically 2 - 3 minutes. One advantage of the older Pyro developers was they had a strong tanning action hardening the emulsion as they developed. Typical old fashioned Pyro developers are Ilford ID-1 and Kodak D1 -ABC Pyro.

There's no reason why your dry plates wouldn't be OK with a modern Pyro developer, I'd probably use Pyrocat HD at a more concentrated dilution to keep the dev time short, I use it at 1+1+100 in a Jobo or Paterson inversion tank but 2+2 to 100 tray developing 10x8 film. i'd probably go for 5x5 to 100 with plates.no idea what dev time.

Ian

 

[mooseontheloose]

Jason, I haven't tried it yet, but I plan on developing the plates I have in Finol (not sure what dilution to try yet, but I guess that's what experimenting is for!). In my research it seems that pyro/staining developers were quite often used with plates, but I haven't come across any recent information that could give more detailed times/dilutions for different developers.

On a side note - I just did my first wet plate workshop this past weekend in Nagoya. We did both glass plates and tintypes. The (Japanese) photographer running the workshop is aware of you/your dry plates Jason! But he thinks doing dry plate is much more difficult than wet plate, so hasn't really pursued it.

 

[Nodda Duma]

On FB someone mentioned that PMK Pyro resulted in a thin negative at 70F and 30 minute developing time.

 

[Rick A]

On FB someone mentioned that PMK Pyro resulted in a thin negative at 70F and 30 minute developing time.

You cannot go by what others have "said on FB". you can only rely on your own testing. Other people's results are just that, theirs. You don't have access to their gear, or shooting environs, meter readings, shutter quirks, et c.

 

[Nodda Duma]

You cannot go by what others have "said on FB". you can only rely on your own testing. Other people's results are just that, theirs. You don't have access to their gear, or shooting environs, meter readings, shutter quirks, et c.

Thanks, I understand and agree with your viewpoint, but didn’t want to finger type all the qualifications underlying that statement. Most of the folks here in this subforum will understand that I’m referring to someone using my dry plates and/or are familiar with dry plates and that I rarely have time to test developers I don’t use. After a plate shooter of skill posted that comment on FB in response to the same question I posed here, I did some digging and found that PMK Pyro resulting in a thin plate seems to be a general rule, variances in gear and metering aside.

But yes, you are correct. This thread is intended to collect some info on dry plates in pyro for use as a starting point for people interested in doing so, and not necessarily for my own use. Haven’t seen much on this combination here on photrio.

 

[Nodda Duma]

On a side note - I just did my first wet plate workshop this past weekend in Nagoya. We did both glass plates and tintypes. The (Japanese) photographer running the workshop is aware of you/your dry plates Jason! But he thinks doing dry plate is much more difficult than wet plate, so hasn't really pursued it.

That’s very cool and funny..I think wet plate is more difficult so I stuck with dry plate! Please pass on if he’s ever interested, then I’d be happy to answer any questions he might have.

 

[Rick A]

I was only thinking of the "developed for 30 minutes" portion of your original post. That smacks of underexposure, and no amount of over developing will make up for that. I've been using PMK for nearly everything I shoot any more, I see no reason it wouldn't work with a dry plate, after all wasn't that the developer deJur back in the day.

 

[Nodda Duma]

Could be. Think maybe he could have been using exhausted pyro?

 

[Rick A]

Could be. Think maybe he could have been using exhausted pyro?

Possibly, or mixed too dilute. I've had P-Cat HD act like that when it was only one year old, conversely I just developed some x-ray film in 6 year old PMK with no issues, and part A in the nastiest black you could imagine. I even had to filter the chunks out of part B before I could use it. Bottom line, it worked perfectly. And yes, I do have fresh PMK on the shelf, I just wanted to see if this was still viable.

 

[Ian Grant]

Could be. Think maybe he could have been using exhausted pyro?

Some "Pyro" suppliers and that's more than one developer use inappropriate plastic bottles which allow Oxygen to permeate the walls of the bottles seriously shortening the developers shelf life, we had a UK supplier like that and a major US supplier uses similar bottles. A friends Prescysol which was actually Pyrocat HD was lasting less than 3 months, yet mine lasts 4 years in the correct bottles and that's part partially full as I use it up.

Ian

 

[koraks]

There's no reason why your dry plates wouldn't be OK with a modern Pyro developer

I'm not entirely sure. Take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't actually tried it, but pyro(gallol or -catechol) tans the emulsion which causes it to shrink a tiny bit. Depending on the subbing/adhesion of the emulsion to the plate, this shrinkage could result in the emulsion (partly) lifting from the plate. This is a well-known phenomenon with wet plates (in which I have experienced it) and it is possible that the problem could arise with dry plates as well. Nonetheless, I suspect that the emulsion on Jason's plates (1) is much stronger than a typical wet collodion layer and (2) that his emulsions are most likely much better bonded with the plates than a typical collodion layer. So the problem may not arise at all, or to a much lesser extent.

 

[dwross]

I tried pyro on some of my first plates. Seemed to work fine. I have a collection of very old dry plates (hundred or so years old). A number of them look like they were developed in pyro. I don't have a big enough sample of my own work, or enough information on the exact processing of the antique plates, to make a definitive judgement, but I think there's a different "look" to the pyro plates. I'm not a big fan of pyro, mostly because of its toxicity, so I've never pursued it personally, but I'd love to see someone else chase it down. Might be interesting. (From the earliest days of TLF: http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/GlassNegatives/GlassNegativesPart1.htm)

 

[dwross]

I'm not entirely sure. Take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't actually tried it, but pyro(gallol or -catechol) tans the emulsion which causes it to shrink a tiny bit. Depending on the subbing/adhesion of the emulsion to the plate, this shrinkage could result in the emulsion (partly) lifting from the plate. This is a well-known phenomenon with wet plates (in which I have experienced it) and it is possible that the problem could arise with dry plates as well. Nonetheless, I suspect that the emulsion on Jason's plates (1) is much stronger than a typical wet collodion layer and (2) that his emulsions are most likely much better bonded with the plates than a typical collodion layer. So the problem may not arise at all, or to a much lesser extent.

Hi! koraks. Welcome to Photrio/APUG. Sounds like you have a lot to offer!

 

[koraks]

Hi! koraks. Welcome to Photrio/APUG. Sounds like you have a lot to offer!

Thank you for the warm welcome! And thank you as well on your excellent works in the area of emulsion making, I've read quite a few of your writings with great interest over the past few years.

 

[Ian Grant]

I'm not entirely sure. Take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't actually tried it, but pyro(gallol or -catechol) tans the emulsion which causes it to shrink a tiny bit. Depending on the subbing/adhesion of the emulsion to the plate, this shrinkage could result in the emulsion (partly) lifting from the plate. This is a well-known phenomenon with wet plates (in which I have experienced it) and it is possible that the problem could arise with dry plates as well. Nonetheless, I suspect that the emulsion on Jason's plates (1) is much stronger than a typical wet collodion layer and (2) that his emulsions are most likely much better bonded with the plates than a typical collodion layer. So the problem may not arise at all, or to a much lesser extent.

I'm talked from over a decade of making and coating emulsions commercially, and a lot of research.

Ian

 

[Nodda Duma]

koraks, I haven’t heard of any frilling from use of pyro and in fact any frilling is rare now at all. I nailed down adhesion pretty heavily early on for people who couldn’t control their temperatures well...which causes the issues you describe through temperature changes.

The real issue is that pyro seems to be slowing down the effective ISO significantly, in essence.


Ian, does pyro work with certain grain types and not others? I’m building up a AgI core with AgBr shell now so solvent developers work better.

 

[koraks]

I gladly accept experience over theory, of course!

 

[Ian Grant]

koraks, I haven’t heard of any frilling from use of pyro and in fact any frilling is rare now at all. I nailed down adhesion pretty heavily early on for people who couldn’t control their temperatures well...which causes the issues you describe through temperature changes.

The real issue is that pyro seems to be slowing down the effective ISO significantly, in essence.

Ian, does pyro work with certain grain types and not others? I’m building up a AgI core with AgBr shell now so solvent developers work better.

Jason, that may depend on the actual developer formula being used. My experience with Pyrocat HD is with modern film emulsions but of quite different types, so ranging from the old soft EFKE emulsions, Forte, Foma, through to Ilford HP5 and the T grain and similar emulsions like Tmax 100 & 400 and Delta 100 & 400 and a slight increase in film speed compared to a solvent type developer like D76. Tmax and Delta films have high Iodide levels but that's not an issue.

I'd be looking at other variable to ascertain why a developer seems to be giving less than optimal results. Tray processing itself can be a source of wide temperature shifts usually down causing under development, aerial oxidation can be a problem and Pyro developers have a short working life once mixed. The other issue may well be the freshness of the Pyro developer and improper storage. I've seen Pyrocat from 3 different suppliers (1 US, 2 UK) where the wrong type of plastic bottles have been used and Part A has started to collapse within a month or two. I actually made this mistake myself quite a few years ago thinking I could keep my Pyrocat longer storing in small 200ml plastic bottles, they weren't High Density plastic and I learnt my lesson as it didn't keep Now I use High Density plastic bottle s and it keeps well.

It's the same with any other Pyro developer, and many non Pyro and it's no coincidence that all the major manufacturers use High Density plastic bottles for chemistry.

Ian

 

[Nodda Duma]

Thanks, Ian. I’ll check this weekend. I’m meeting Gary Samson this weekend at his studio here in NH and this issue is on the agenda. Gary’s been in alternative processes for decades..you can google his name to see his credentials. I’ll share what I find.

 

[Nokton48]

J Lane Custom Made Dry Plate Drying Rack by Nokton48, on Flickr

Hi Jason. This arrived today, THANKS.

PMK Pyro was always a preferred soup for me, and I will try it with your 6.5x9cm dry plates. Time is all I need to get started, and that is coming soon in a very big way. So I will contribute what I find soon. -Dan

 

[Nodda Duma]

Dan, glad to see it showed up.

Here is some info from "back in the day"

https://books.google.com/books?id=n...HoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=dry plates pyro&f=false

Also, Denise Ross states on her website that she developed for 15 minutes.

-Jason