Dry mount tissue not adhering to museum board (help!)

adelorenzo · Jul 30, 2017

I'm trying to dry mount fiber prints onto Archival Methods 100% cotton museum board. For some reason the dry mount tissue isn't sticking to the mount, it peels away easily and just leaves a slight residue. (It fully adheres to the print)

When I use regular mat board everything works fine. I'm using Kodak dry mount tissue.

I have tried using more time and higher temperature. I have also tried extensively pre-heating the museum board in case it's an issue with moisture.

Anyone have any suggestions on what could be going wrong? I'm at a loss.

mike c · Jul 30, 2017

Right after taken out of the press , put some flat weight (large Books)on top of print and let it sit for 5 mins or so to cool, then check the adhesion.

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2017

adelorenzo said:
I have tried using more time and higher temperature. I have also tried extensively pre-heating the museum board in case it's an issue with moisture.

Sounds to me like you are doing the right tests. Since it adheres to the paper, it seems like the temperature is ok, and the only possible issue would be the time, giving it long enough for the mount board to come up to temp. But you've tried all the angles on that without success.

I would be inclined to think that the board itself may be the problem. I'd probably get on the phone with Archival Methods, with the specific question, "Is this material intended for dry mounting?" If so, what mounting tissue do they recommend?

I see on their website that this material is (pH) buffered with calcium carbonate; I wonder if this is the issue. I'd be inclined to try a brief water wash or scrubbing of a small piece of the board, and if I could dry it flat then see if it was mountable. If so, you would at least know the problem was not your technique. Best of luck.

Peter Schrager · Jul 31, 2017

Not the,boards..most likely the mounting tissue..buy some new

RalphLambrecht · Jul 31, 2017

Greg Davis said:
I've had the same problem with Kodak tissue. Try using Seal/Bienfang tissue, it has never failed me.

That's also the only thing I can think of.You took care of the most likely culprits. Are you sure your thermometer is giving you the correct value? Use a clothes iron to rule out the press. If that doesn't work switch to another tissue.I had good results with Colormount;(really meant for RC but worked perfectly fine with FB for me).

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2017

Greg Davis said:
I've had the same problem with Kodak tissue. Try using Seal/Bienfang tissue, it has never failed me.

Greg, to be clear, when you say that you've had the same problem, do you mean exactly the same? Meaning that the Kodak tissue worked fine on "regular" mount boards, but not at all on calcium carbonate-buffered boards? And that the Seal tissue worked fine on both types?

RalphLambrecht · Jul 31, 2017

mike c said:
Right after taken out of the press , put some flat weight (large Books)on top of print and let it sit for 5 mins or so to cool, then check the adhesion.

Yes, and a 1/4" sheet of glass is perfect for this.

David Allen · Jul 31, 2017

Hi there,

Sorry to hear you are having problems.

Dry mounting is a relatively simple procedure and it is very rare that the tissue is at fault when it adheres to the print but not the board. Here are the ‘golden rules’ that you need to know to solve your problem and have problem free mounting sessions in the future:

Mounts of 100% rag or cotton usually have slightly dusty surfaces and dry mounted prints will usually lose some adhesion because of this. For this reason, it is always better to use conservation board, which is actually of higher specification than the base of photographic prints anyway! It is also a lot cheaper than museum board.
Always (but always) dry your mount and cover board in press (about 40 secs depending upon the temperature of your press), removing and returning each in turn after turning over; i.e.: dry "both sides" of each board before starting a mounting session.
Always (but always) dry your print in press (about 40 secs depending upon the temperature of your press), removing and returning each in turn after turning over; i.e.: dry "both sides" of each print before starting a mounting session (before you ask, of course the print you want to mount is already dry but it may have taken on moisture during storage before dry mounting).
Place in press for at least 40 seconds (depends on the temperature and pressure of your press - my press is very old and I have to press for 30 seconds and then turn the print 180˚ and press for a further 30 seconds as the front of the press has less pressure than the back of the press). Remove and slightly bend mounted print back to straighten and test if it is properly fixed to the mount board. Place on cool surface, face up, to finally flatten. Spare boards and some books can be placed on top for a couple of minutes to help the flattening process.
Different makes of tissue require different temperatures (for example here in Germany we have Bienfang Colormount that requires 88˚C, the acid free FixMount requires 77˚ C, the acid free DigiMount requires 70˚ C and, when I lived in the UK, I used D&K DH1 BufferMount Dry mount tissue which required 78˚ C and relatively long times in the press but worked very well) and time in the press - so testing each manufacturer’s tissue is a pre-requirement.
Always remember the heating process melts the tissue but it is the cooling of the tissue that creates the permanent bond between print and board.
The most important thing to know about the dry mounting process is if the tissue sticks to the print and not the mount, the temperature was too cool. However, if the press is too hot you will scorch the print.

Hope this solves your problems.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2017

I have had this problem lately, specifically in the winter when the humidity is low... basically I waited a day or two and tried again and it worked - go figure.

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2017

I gotta say, some of this makes it seem like dry mounting is almost a dark art. At a place where I used to work they used to run about a dozen presses doing 16x20 inch prints, or so (all color RC). Periodically my group would have to troubleshoot mounting problems - almost always they were temperature problems. Sometimes one of the heating elements was bad so a platen heated unevenly. Or occasionally a press needed the "squeeze" pressure readjusted (we'd try short strips of paper stuck in at various places to see if they were equally difficult to pull out).

I don't recall ever having an actual media problem. We always ran the typical commercial materials, several tissue types over the year, but never tried pH buffered boards. Nor did we work outside of a ~40 to 50% R.H. range, so I don't know the effects. And since it was a "production" operation, nothing was ever really "out of date," although I'm doubtful that this would be an issue. Like David says, different tissues may need different temperatures, etc.

I am a bit befuddled by all of the problems being reported by experienced people, and the part of me that enjoys tricky puzzles wishes it could be digging into these. So I'd love to hear the ultimate resolution.

As a note, Henry Wilhelm's book (downloadable free from his site) has a short section on how to test for best temp, etc., that I think is worth reading when one has problems.

adelorenzo · Jul 31, 2017

Thank you to everyone for the replies! I really appreciate all the suggestions.

Greg Davis said:
I've had the same problem with Kodak tissue. Try using Seal/Bienfang tissue, it has never failed me.

Peter Schrager said:
Not the,boards..most likely the mounting tissue..buy some new

Greg Davis said:
I could never get Kodak tissue to work consistently. It would stick to the print but it the board, stick to the board and not the print, stick to both then peel off in the frame, and so on.

This is the simplest explanation and definitely a good possibility. My box of Kodak tissue is quite old which probably doesn't help although, as mentioned, it works a treat on regular board, foamcore etc. I'll have to mail order something to replace it.

mike c said:
Right after taken out of the press , put some flat weight (large Books)on top of print and let it sit for 5 mins or so to cool, then check the adhesion.

I always do this when dry mounting but there is basically no adhesion happening at all. When I take the board out of the press the print basically just curls away.

Mr Bill said:
I would be inclined to think that the board itself may be the problem. I'd probably get on the phone with Archival Methods, with the specific question, "Is this material intended for dry mounting?" If so, what mounting tissue do they recommend?

I've reached out to them and will post here when I hear back from them.

Bob Carnie said:
I have had this problem lately, specifically in the winter when the humidity is low... basically I waited a day or two and tried again and it worked - go figure.

RH in my darkroom right now is 70% so I think I'm good. In the winter it's more like 20-30% but I haven't had issues with dry mounting in the winter (yet).

adelorenzo · Jul 31, 2017

David, thank you for your lengthy and detailed reply. Those are some really helpful tips.

David Allen said:
Different makes of tissue require different temperatures (for example here in Germany we have Bienfang Colormount that requires 88˚C, the acid free FixMount requires 77˚ C, the acid free DigiMount requires 70˚ C and, when I lived in the UK, I used D&K DH1 BufferMount Dry mount tissue which required 78˚ C and relatively long times in the press but worked very well) and time in the press - so testing each manufacturer’s tissue is a pre-requirement.

Always remember the heating process melts the tissue but it is the cooling of the tissue that creates the permanent bond between print and board.

The most important thing to know about the dry mounting process is if the tissue sticks to the print and not the mount, the temperature was too cool. However, if the press is too hot you will scorch the print.

My Kodak tissue calls for 180-225˚ F (80-100˚ C) and I normally have my press set at 225. I tried cranking it up as high as 275 and it didn't seem to help. Of course my thermostat could be off but on regular mat board or foamcore I get a good mount within 30 seconds. Occasionally I have to pop it back in for a corner or two. With this museum board, even after a longer and hotter time in the press, when I flex the board to check for adhesion the print just rolls right off.

adelorenzo · Jul 31, 2017

Mr Bill said:
I gotta say, some of this makes it seem like dry mounting is almost a dark art....I am a bit befuddled by all of the problems being reported by experienced people, and the part of me that enjoys tricky puzzles wishes it could be digging into these. So I'd love to hear the ultimate resolution.

Until this dry mounting has been a pretty simple and painless process for me. And honestly I can't imagine doing anything with fiber prints without being able to dry mount them.

I will post when I figure this out, I'm guessing it boils down to material incompatibility. Hopefully Archival Methods gets back to me.

Patrick Robert James · Jul 31, 2017

You could try lightly roughing the board a bit with sandpaper. Keep in mind paper is rather porous and mat board has been pressed. The tissue might not be able to grab the fibers of the board. I suspect that would solve your problem.

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2017

Patrick Robert James said:
You could try lightly roughing the board a bit with sandpaper. Keep in mind paper is rather porous and mat board has been pressed. The tissue might not be able to grab the fibers of the board. I suspect that would solve your problem.

Good point

cliveh · Jul 31, 2017

Why in this day and age are you using dry mount tissue. There are much better ways of mounting prints these days like self adhesive foam board.

APLJ · Jul 31, 2017

I had a similar experience when I first started dry mounting my own prints, after some extensive trial and error, I found that leaving the print in the press too long, or at too high a temperature can also cause bonding issues. Some tissues are designed to removable by reheating at higher temperatures. I found the mat board and dry mounting tissue combination I have been using to be particularly sensitive, so I like to mount a few test strips at slightly different times to see which one has the best bond before I start mounting actual prints. I've also noticed that print size can make a slight difference in how long it needs to be in the press, small prints heat faster than large ones. It's all kind of like finding print exposure in the darkroom.

adelorenzo · Aug 1, 2017

Solved! It was an issue of needing lower temperatures. I turned my press all the way down to 180 F, which is the lower limit of the Kodak tissue, and I was diligent with only pressing for 30 seconds. It's working fine now.

For the record, I heard back from Archival Methods and there is no coating or other reason that the museum board shouldn't work with dry mounting.

Thanks again everyone for the replies. I've definitely improved my technique thanks to some of the tips in this thread.

Mr Bill · Aug 1, 2017

Cool, thanks for the update.

As a note, 30 seconds in the press sounds a bit short to me; I think I'd try a series with various times, flexing the (cooled off) mounted print severely (obviously these are junk prints for testing) to see if it comes loose.

Fyi, Wilhelm likes over a minute in the press, albeit with a sheet of matte board over the top of the print, and Ansel Adams, in "The Print," suggests something like three minutes, but with heavy-weight matte board both above and below the print package (these extra mattes take some time to let the press heat pass through). If you want to read up from Wilhelm, see chapter 11, page 378 or thereabouts, from his free download.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 7, 2017

Patrick Robert James said:
You could try lightly roughing the board a bit with sandpaper. Keep in mind paper is rather porous and mat board has been pressed. The tissue might not be able to grab the fibers of the board. I suspect that would solve your problem.

or it could make it worse because, the tissue will not adhere well to dusty surfaces!

adelorenzo · Aug 18, 2017

Mr Bill said:
As a note, 30 seconds in the press sounds a bit short to me; I think I'd try a series with various times, flexing the (cooled off) mounted print severely (obviously these are junk prints for testing) to see if it comes loose.

Fyi, Wilhelm likes over a minute in the press, albeit with a sheet of matte board over the top of the print, and Ansel Adams, in "The Print," suggests something like three minutes, but with heavy-weight matte board both above and below the print package (these extra mattes take some time to let the press heat pass through). If you want to read up from Wilhelm, see chapter 11, page 378 or thereabouts, from his free download.

With my normal process I was usually going for 60-90 seconds in the press. Given that the issues with this mount board seemed to be with high temperatures I didn't want to risk leaving anything in too long so I went for the shortest possible time that seemed to work. The prints went straight off the press under weight to cool. It's been a few weeks now and no issues.

Saganich · Aug 18, 2017

When I had similar issues I purchased temp strips that would indicate the temp of the board in the press. I quickly realized that time in the press was crucial, that the board was taking more time than seemed reasonable to heat to the correct temp for the tissue, up to 2 minutes or more depending the total thickness of the boards. I never had a problem again.

Dry mount tissue not adhering to museum board (help!)

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency