Double X film a sponge??

[Joel_L]

I keep all my film in a dedicated fridge. About a year ago the door got stuck open one day, who knows how long it was like that before I noticed. When I did, everything in there was soaked. boxes were falling apart, moisture everywhere. I took everything out for a couple days to let it dry out. I'm not sure why sure why I'm having this issue, In the 30+ years I've been in this location, that kind of moisture has not been an issue. It's typically too dry around here. Looking at my hygrometer now, it reads 30% RH.

Today, I went to roll a few XX rolls and film was getting stuck after about 15 frames. I stopped to investigate and noticed my XX was damp, I had let it sit over night to get acclimated. I put the bulk loader in my tent and took the lid off to let it dry out more while I was at work. I got about 1 roll before it started sticking again. I'm going to leave the loader out a few days and see if things dry out, then I'll have to shoot a roll to see if the film is damaged. I have rolled some E100 and 250D recently and did not have an issue.

Makes me wonder if there is something about XX that attracts excessive moisture.

 

[MattKing]

What sort of container was the film in when the container soaked up all that condensation?

 

[Joel_L]

It was in my loader. I have two other loaders ( same ones ) with my 250D and E100, they are both fine. My 100 foot loaders were also OK. All my boxed film was soaked, fortunately it was just the boxes, the film inside was either in a canister ( 35mm ) or bagged ( 120 film ). My 4x5 also had box damage, but the wrapped film inside was OK.

 

[Don_ih]

A bulk loader is not air-tight. So all that moisture you mopped off the outside of boxes of film happily went inside that bulk loader at the same time. Unfortunately.

 

[Joel_L]

That I get, it just seemed odd that the other stocks of film I have are fine and just the XX seems to have suffered. I hope it's not all ruined. Thinking back to when it happened, seemed a lot of the issue was condensation on the walls of the fridge running down and pooling on the shelves where the boxes of film. With the door open, i imagine it was a continuous process until I noticed it. I'm sure there was some condensation in the loader too but I would expect all the loaders ( 6 in total ) to have the same issue, but only the XX being badly affected.

I'll try another roll in a day and see if it's improved.

 

[MattKing]

It might be as simple as the XX loader being the one against the wall of the fridge.
There certainly is a possibility that different films, with different emulsions, in some cases on different emulsions, in different loaders, might respond differently in overly wet environments.
I'm quite sure though that none are designed to cope well with overly wet environments.

 

[Joel_L]

That's a possibility. The three 400ft loaders are stacked one on top of the other on a shelf. It may have been the bottom. Though I'm pretty certain I have rolled several rolls off it since that happened. I don't shoot B&W as often as the E100 or 250D, but still often enough I would have rolled from it. When I opened the loader to help it dry out, It felt like there was about half left, that's a lot of film to loose.

 

[mshchem]

Wait, you're storing 400 foot bulk loaders in a refrigerator??

Well that's an expensive lesson.

I backed a car into a light pole when I was in high school, I was blinded by adrenaline.

I still do dumb things. Part of living I guess.

My only thought is that maybe if the center of the roll is still wound tight you could remove the film from the loader and pull off 10 or 15 feet and save some of the roll. I would get the film out of the loader and dry out the loader really well. If the film is getting wet in the loader, well, that's not good.

Gelatin is certainly capable of absorbing moisture.

 

[Romanko]

You can put the roll in a light- and air-tight container with a decent amount of fresh silica gel and let is sit for a while. If I were you I would not risk it, get a box of empty "single use" cassettes from a friendly film lab and spend an evening loading the rest of your double-x roll into cassettes before the gelatin glues the roll into a solid disk of laminated cellulose.

 

[koraks]

it just seemed odd that the other stocks of film I have are fine and just the XX seems to have suffered

I've been working with 5222/double X for a brief time, only, so far, but I've noticed that the emulsion on this film is much 'softer' (liable to mechanical damage) than the emulsion on e.g. Vision3 films. I think it has something to do with the processing requirements and the permeability of the emulsion to the developer, which culminates in a softer and/or thinner topcoat on the 5222 product relative to the color products.

Sorry to hear about your film. I'm afraid it's toast since it'll be likely impossible to avoid drying marks when trying to dry the film as it's spooled up. Provided you get it to dry out in the first place before the emulsion disintegrates, which is an uphill battle to begin with.

 

[Joel_L]

The loader is dry inside. I took the roll out and put it back in it's can just to check the loader. The roll is tightly wound, but seems there was enough moisture at one point to get into it.

I tried another roll this morning, got about 20 frames before it got stuck.

Right now it's back in my tent with the loader open. I'll let it sit for days and try again. I'm not very hopeful at this point but will give it a try.

"before the gelatin glues the roll into a solid disk of laminated cellulose"
It might be too late.


"Wait, you're storing 400 foot bulk loaders in a refrigerator??"
For the last 30+ years I have stored my bulk loaders in a fridge, have never had an issue. I had film that was 20+ years old ( Provia 100F, Optima 100 ) and could shoot and process normally. It has always worked for me...... till now.

I really liked the XX, but I am happy that what E100D I have left is OK.

One thing that did change, I went from one of those dorm fridge/freezer combos that has the corner freezer section that always iced up. A few years ago I bought a bigger fridge only box that the back panel is the cooling radiator. Since having this issue I looked again and noticed that if anything it touching the back it gets wet. If nothing is touching, the back and contents stay dry. Yesterday I took all my boxed film out of their boxes ( some were damp ) and positioned them so nothing touched the back. This morning everything was dry. I will watch this for a while. Things touching the sides seems to not matter.

 

[koraks]

For what it's worth, I never store opened boxes/envelopes/cans of film in a fridge for the reasons you've just found out. Sooner or later, it goes wrong. 120 roll film is of course notorious, but ultimately, nothing is safe if water is involved. I split 400ft rolls into 100ft rolls and once those get out of the fridge, they go into the loader and remain outside the fridge until they're used up. Film loaded back into 35mm cassettes and then put into a properly sealing/waterproof box sometimes go back into the fridge. The same for 100ft bulk rolls that are put into a plastic bag, taped shut and put inside a protective box. Something like a bulk loader with film in it with no additional protection is, as you've found out, susceptible to picking up moisture. Ultimately, gelatin is somewhat hygroscopic, so the film will just absorb moisture from the air and once that process has started, the film is basically toast.

 

[Joel_L]

I look into bagging things with desiccant.

My biggest issue is I am very inconsistent in going out and shooting film. I tend to favor slide film, so the others can sit a very long time before I use them.

I did make some shelve extensions for the fridge, that may have done something to make the situation worse ( blocking air circulation? ). With the old fridge, never had a issue, but that does not mean I was not just lucky for a long time.

 

[Saganich]

A vacuum pump would help with the desiccation. I have noticed that XX soaks up more developer than TriX.

 

[Joel_L]

Just after posting, I thought about vacuum bagging my loaders.

 

[Joel_L]

After a couple days in my film drier, no change, stuff is stuck.

R.I.P - I really liked this film.

 

[koraks]

I'm sorry for your loss.
How do you like the 3D printed bulk loader, apart from this mishap?

 

[Joel_L]

Well, I'm biased because I designed it. I have three of them and they have been working well for me. I can roll with a little less waste.

400 ft Bulk loader by heliflier

I printed mine with a .5 nozzle and .2mm layer height. Bed 85C and nozzle 240C.The cover can be printed on its back with no supports but looks better printed on its side with supports. If printing on its side, pay attention to the direction of the supports vs the first layer. On simplify3D I...

www.thingiverse.com

I might do a version for 100ft rolls. I do have Alden and Watson loaders, but they are awkward to store