Double Loading 120 + Rodinal 50 Question

RoboRepublic · Dec 24, 2020

Hi folks, I'm interested in double loading 2x120 films on my Patterson reel and putting it in my 1000ml tank with 500ml of chemistry. Would a double loaded reel need more chemistry concentration or time? Or should I just proceed as normal?

I'm thinking to use Rodinal with 1:50 dilution (490+10).

wyofilm · Dec 24, 2020

Maybe someone here knows better, but I believe that you need at least 10 ml rodinal per roll of 120 (and per roll of 35mm). Therefore, to to 1:50 dilution you would need to make up and use 1000ml.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 24, 2020

What do you mean by double-loading? If two films on same spool . No. It's same as going out with two girls, meeting each in restaurants next to each other, hoping one will not find out about the other. You can go to a loo only so many times before the "perfect" date blows up.

Double-loiading is false economy to me. And some sort of saving is the sole idea behind it.

MattKing · Dec 24, 2020

I load two 120 rolls on to a single Paterson clone (AP) reel frequently. The reels - Paterson too - are designed for 220, and there is ample room. Load the first roll, advance it as far as you can toward the centre of the reel, and then load the second.
A couple of cautions:
1) play close attention to the capacity of the developer. I expect that wyofilm's advice with respect to Rodinal is accurate. For HC-110, which I have experience with, 6 ml of syrup per roll is necessary. As I use replenished X-Tol, I don't have problems with this;
2) film in developer is slippery. I avoid rotary agitation for almost all the development stage, because otherwise the rolls move within the reels, and can end up overlapping. I do use rotary agitation for the pre-wet, stop bath, fixer and HCA stages, and have no problems with migrating film there.
I actually have no problem loading four 120 rolls on to two reels and developing them all together in one of those one litre tanks.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 24, 2020

Why the hell didn't I think I'd that!?! The double loading of 120, not dating two girls at the same time!

mshchem · Dec 24, 2020

You definitely need at least 10mL of Rodinal per 120 film. Jobo has the little red clips that get lost. I have loaded 2 120 on Paterson reels. I would use a small bit of tape, just a little spot, after the first roll is on and when the second is just started. 1:25 means 20 mL into 500mL use a Paterson Universal tank

wyofilm · Dec 24, 2020

Double loading can be done on jobo spools, which has a tab to separate the two films. Also, AP spools have a similar tab, I believe.

More importantly, how many mls rodinal per 120 film? I wrote 10ml, which I think is right, but I hope someone can confirm this for the OP.

wyofilm · Dec 24, 2020

Oops! mshchem came through while I was typing the above.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 25, 2020

Double loading of 120 rolls on to a plastic reel inside a dark bag is quite likely to turn out to be a messy and frustrating exercise.

As far as dilution for double loaded reel is concerned, wouldn't it work well if you continue to use your well-tested and favourite dilution but change the working solution at half time? In other words, prepare twice the volume of developer you would use for a single roll, use half of it for half the time and other half for the rest of the time.

MattKing · Dec 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Double loading of 120 rolls on to a plastic reel inside a dark bag is quite likely to turn out to be a messy and frustrating exercise.

I can't answer that, because from my experience single loading of 120 rolls on to a plastic reel inside a dark bag is quite likely to turn out to be a messy and frustrating exercise.
But if dark bags work for you, I don't think it is all that more difficult to do. It is important to note though that I have never had to tape the two rolls to each other. When the first roll is pushed right to the end, there is a decent amount of space between it and the second roll.
Just don't use rotary agitation for most of the development stage.

Kyle M. · Dec 25, 2020

Regardless of what the manufacturer or anyone else may say you do not need 10ml of Rodinal per roll of film. I used Rodinal 1:100 exclusively for about three years in both a single 35mm tank and a 500ml Paterson tank. I then switched to 1:50 as it shortened my times. Even if I had two rooms of 35mm or two rooms of 120 in my 1000ml tank I still use the 1:50 dilution I don’t double the developer because of the added roll. Doubling the developer or using at least 10ml of Rodinal obviously changes the dilution so that is no longer 1:50.

Now someone is going to come along and cry, and whine, and moan about how the manufacturer employs scientists that know what they are doing. That may be but I’ve done a lot of film this way without issue, so I’m not going to change what works. I’m also obviously not forcing you to use my method or even trying to convince you. I’m just telling you what I do.

Many times on this forum I’ve seen people be called liars, cheats, and frauds, they then show proof and are still ridiculed. It seems it gets worse all the time. I’m sure I’ll receive some of that for this post, but in the end at least I know that I’m not lying and that’s all that really matters.

MattKing · Dec 25, 2020

I'm sure Kyle M. isn't lying about his obtaining results he is happy with.
The manufacturers' recommendations for minimum quantities of stock or syrup are conservative and intended to protect commercial developers who have to deal with a wide variety of films exposed in a wide variety of ways. At the same time, they are not overly conservative, because commercial users don't want to have to buy more developer than necessary, because that increases costs.
Choosing to follow manufacturers' minimum quantity recommendations will help protect you from encountering the problems of developer exhaustion. Normally you will only encounter those problems if you use considerably less than the recommended amount, or if you use almost the recommended amount of developer and your subjects or developing needs are outliers - for example, if you need relatively dense and contrasty negatives and your subjects are high key - lots of highlights and bright areas.
Most photographers photograph a wide variety of subjects, and rarely produce negatives that test the capacity of developers that are at least close to the manufacturer's minimum quantity recommendation. As a result, it is relatively rare that their negatives will run into developer exhaustion problems - but there is always those photos of polar bears in snowstorms that need extra contrast ....
Considering the cost of developer vs. the cost of film and lost opportunities, I rely on what is recommended.

R.Gould · Dec 25, 2020

I often load 2 120 films onto one reel with no problems, I load first roll, still attached to the backing paper, letting it weight the film, load until i reach the tape, tear tape and continue loading using my thumbs untill the film is nearly to the center, then carefully turn the film with one hand holding the film until it stops, then I detach the next film leaving the tape on, and load drom tape end, load until the film end just enters the reel, stop, as far as Rodinal 1/50 I use 500ml for the 2 films and have never had a problem, done it for 60 years and always develops both films, or if I use id11 stock I develop both films, counting them as one, again no loss anything for next film

pentaxuser · Dec 25, 2020

The subject of minimum quantity of developer per film is one on which this forum is never likely to reach a consensus. Clearly some people have managed with less than10ml per roll.

Ed Buffaloe says the following in his Appreciation of Rodinal article: " Agfa recommends using at least 10 milliliters of concentrate per roll of film, no matter what dilution you use. My practice has always been to use 5 milliliters in 500 milliliters of water for the 1:100 dilution, which may account for the lengthy developing times with some films, but it works just fine."

What would be interesting is to hear from any of those who despite normally following Agfa's 10ml have ever tried less and what their experience with less has been. We know some like Ed and Kyle have had success with 5ml but how many do we know have had failure or noticeably poorer results at least, with say 5ml/6ml?

pentaxuser

wyofilm · Dec 25, 2020

pentaxuser said:
What would be interesting is to hear from any of those who despite normally following Agfa's 10ml have ever tried less and what their experience with less has been. We know some like Ed and Kyle have had success with 5ml but how many do we know have had failure or noticeably poorer results at least, with say 5ml/6ml?

This is a good question. I've used 10ml, but never less. Why? I was afraid of falling of the edge of the earth.

pentaxuser · Dec 25, 2020

wyofilm said:
This is a good question. I've used 10ml, but never less. Why? I was afraid of falling of the edge of the earth.

I suspect that in photographic processing at least most on this forum, at least most who regularly post on this subject that is are in political terms on the very conservative(right wing?) part of the curve.

pentaxuser

john_s · Dec 25, 2020

I like the Jobo reels for double loading because there is a clip to separate the two films from shifting and possibly overlapping.

As far as reducing the amount of Rodinal from 10mL per film, you will get results from half that, and maybe even a quarter. Will the results be the same? Probably not, but still usable. My guess is that it would depend on which film you choose and how you like your negatives.

I use a developer that is cheaper than Rodinal so I can afford to be generous, even extravagant, with quantities. I'm happy with my consistent results.

Edit: on thinking about it, reducing the amount of developer might lead to a useful control over negative characteristics, maybe controlling highlight density. Just a guess.

MattKing · Dec 25, 2020

pentaxuser said:
I suspect that in photographic processing at least most on this forum, at least most who regularly post on this subject that is are in political terms on the very conservative(right wing?) part of the curve.

pentaxuser

Speak for yourself!
When it comes to photographic processing, I am careful and cautious - partly because I've done it in the past for others, as well as myself.
I am much more comfortable experimenting with other parts of the photographic procedure.
I doubt you would call me right wing though.

russell_w_b · Dec 26, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Double loading of 120 rolls on to a plastic reel inside a dark bag is quite likely to turn out to be a messy and frustrating exercise.

I've found it not so bad to do and I've done it a few times. However...

Without some sort of separators you can quite easily get overlapping frames and they're ruined (been there; done that :-/ ). You need to ensure the first film is fully wound on before loading the second. I do this by grasping it lightly across the diameter of the reel and rotating it gently to the inner end. You need to keep checking this as it can back off a little through winding the second film on. You'll tell when the first film can't go further.

As others say on here, a little bit of tape or proper separating clips may help.

Donald Qualls · Dec 27, 2020

I've been double loading 120 film in 220/35mm adjustable reels for years. I've only had an overlap once, when I tried my original technique of taping the second roll to the tail of the first (push the first roll an inch or two past the balls, start the second, then a piece of masking tape where they meet -- and the second roll will happily push the first to the center). DO NOT try that with blue painter's tape. If you manually push the first roll all the way to the core, however, it works fine; there'll be a couple inches of clearance between the end of the first and the start of the second.

Don't worry too much about developer capacity when doing this, either -- if your developer dilution can handle a 135-36, it'll process a 220 or double loaded 120. You'll need about twice as much solution to cover the wider film, so you'll have enough to process twice as much film. QED, as the Greeks used to say (after translation into Latin).

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 27, 2020

I will say this, since my other post may not have been loud enough: overlap is ALWAYS a possibility, whether cutting a notch or using a tape. It simply never goes away 100%. Notch (or better put two short in-cuts on trailing edge of first film to "lock" inward movement of leading edge of second film) or tape, work and with care will work most of the time.

Neither is 100% bullet proof. Notch can allow slip out and tape ... do yo have a lifetime stock of tape that never failed? Even seemingly same tape will not have same glue throughout its production life, it may work now and tomorrow, with next purchase there is no way to say it will as well.

Is it worth it to save on processing time to end up with at least few ruined frames (or some might call it unintended art)? This is the only (and good enough for me) reason I've stopped doing it after just single failed attempt. And I continue to discourage others as to me, it is indication of not paying attention to what might go wrong in the name of some sort of economy.

As for quantity of chemistry, with double loading use at least the amount called for two 35mm rolls as indicator of what you need. If I recall correctly 500 ml is about that in a Paterson. 1:50 makes 510 ml for me.

NB23 · Dec 28, 2020

The logic should be as follows: one film equals 80 square inches. And it needs about 250ml of developer.

Both 120 and 135 (36 exposures) are 80 square inches. Both are equal. Both can be developed with 250ml of developer.

Since both are equal, you can develop two 120 rolls in 500ml of developer.
One double loaded 120 reel dips into 500ml, just as two 135 reels dip into 500ml.

500ml develops 160 square inches, which translates into two rolls of films regardless of the format.

500ml also develops Eight 4x5 sheets, Five 5x7 sheets, Two 8x10 sheets or only one 11x14.

Double Loading 120 + Rodinal 50 Question

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