Double exposure with Rolleiflex K4A

Hello all.

First post here at APUG so bear with me. I am mainly a 35mm B&W shooter but I have "inherited" an Automat K4A that has recently received a CLA from a reputable tech here in The Netherlands so I think everything should be working fine. Actually it is. Images are really nice. That negative just kills it. Now if only I could take better pictures

Anyways, I recently shot a roll of color film (Portra 400) which gave me some lovely results. But, the first image was double exposed. Not that I mind but from what I have read, double exposure is not possible with this model? Would be cool to know how to either repeat or avoid it.

Thanks!

It is possible for the shutter to not get cocked fully during the winding stroke. There is rotating part that pushes the cocking ring in the shutter; if this ring gets pushed almost to the locking point but not quite to locking, sometimes the shutter leaves will open as the cocking ring returns to the uncocked position, sort of a 'false firing' of the shutter.

There is a difference in exposure between the two images on your film. I assume that the lighter ghost image is the one that you didn't take deliberately? This throws my theory off a bit as the 'false firing' is usually slower than an regular firing as the motion of the wind lever creates the opening and closing of the leaves. Maybe the aperture was closed down as you wound the film into position, then opened up for the shot you took deliberately?

Anyway, do some test firing. Different speeds- B, 1, and 1/250 and 1/500 being the most likely problem speeds. Also move the lens board from one extreme to the other, especially set for closest focus. During all of these, watch the lens to see if the shutter leaves open during any winding. If it happens as all, which it shouldn't, call your shop and arrange for them to adjust this. The side panel needs to be removed, at which point the adjustment for the shutter cocking is accessible. Seriously, one instance of false firing means it goes back to the shop!

Well, just an idea. I'm not certain if this is what really happened in your case.

If 1/500 isn't seen, be sure the shutter is not cocked before pushing the shutter speed dial past 1/250. 1/500 is 'hidden' around the corner. You shouldn't change speeds to or from 1/50 with the shutter cocked.

Welcome to APUG, and to the Rolleiflex world. Yep, those negatives can be addictive.

Aaaah, Rolleiflex negs, like crack cocaine, you've gone and done it now!

Welcome to the forum. Sometimes Rolleflexes that haven't had regular recent use will have film transport issues when they are used again but your statement about a recent CLA puts that to rest hopefully. Just generally speaking, another point is that it's sometimes possible for funny things to happen if you crank them over too rough or vigorously, so use a gentle but consistent stroke on the lever if you can. Some of these cameras have a button close to the crank to allow for multiple exposure but seem to recall that your model doesn't allow for this, as you already suspect. Might be worth noting what films and types it happens on, see if you only get the fault on one kind of film / thickness. Film transport problems on Rolleiflexes always seem more likely to happen with the first frame (as with yours) and then sometimes take a couple of frames to (often) straighten themselves out again in my experience. You shouldn't be getting this every time though so would be interested to see what future rolls hold in store for you.

I think the clue is in the fact it was your first shot on the roll, my only conclusion is that you wound it on and you somehow managed to take a the first shot without the camera being fully engaged and then it moved on slightly and went into the correct first shot position where you double exposed it. Just make sure the camera is fully engaged for the first shot next time and that the film is thread the right way through the rollers........This of course is just hot air guess work also did you make sure that thin strip of holding paper was removed from the film before loading.pheraps that could have effected it.......Who knows.

My one gripe about my model of Rolleiflex is the fact that you can't just use a empty reel of backing paper for testing the cameras out because of the thickness sensor.....Like I said all can think off unless it as a fault.

Thank you Dan, Chromacomaphoto and Harry for your replies. I have shot 2-3 rolls of Tri-X in the past (again, those negatives...) and this never happened so who knows, maybe it is the thickness of the paper as Chromacomaphoto suggest as I never shot Portra before.
I will pay attention on how I load, and be gentle with winding etc. So used to my M4 and the tank like aspect that I foget how fragile a Rolleiflex is/can be. I am going to load some more Portra in there and see what gives. I honestly think this was a fluke but it never hurts to check with people who's experience runs deep and I will keep you all posted.

On another note, I think 6X6 color is just so gorgeous that I will dedicate the Automat to that. The colors are just stunning. I really dislike the Epson holder so the negative of the image below was just thrown on the glass, scanned and some very minor adjustments were made in Photoshop.

Again, thanks for the answers. much appreciated.

That color is stunning. I've shot Portra 160 NC before and the color in my prints isn't as vivid as what you have.

Is your 400 the NC (normal contrast) type or VC? Which model scanner do you have? I've been wanting to get one.

My favorite color film these days is Ektar 100.

You know, if you take a piece of plastic or cardboard and cut an opening in it, then place a piece of anti-newton ring glass on top (negative with emulsion down) you can get a decent negative holder to keep the negative flat. This works for traditional enlargers, also, so I figure it's ok to mention here. Dust is a problem, of course; Ilford Antistaticum clothes help.

Rolleiflexes are not delicate. You should be able to wind film without having to baby them.

I have some rolls of AGFA colour 120 that I shot this Autumn on my Rolleiflex I do not intend to develope them until the summer when everything in my world is warmer....

Theo: I scan on an Epson V800 Photo and I use Silverfast 8 as far as software scanning. I am not sure which version of the Portra 400 I bought. I didn't even know two different version existed until you mentioned. As I said, I've been, so far, a B&W shooter.

Dan: Been actually looking online to figure out how to make my own so thanks for the tip!

Harry: Curious to understand what you mean by "I do not intend to develop them until the summer when everything in my world is warmer". The reason I ask is because I recently developed some 35mm Tri-X and man it was curly! And not fun curly like The Three Stooges. But when I developed this summer things were flat and so nice and easy to work with, I even thought Tri-X had changed their formula. I digress.

Again, thank everyone for the welcome wagon

Guy.

Guy, another approach to a negative holder is using the existing Epson holder. Remove the hinged top part- two small tabs, which will usually release if you bend the end upwards in a curve from the center. Then use 3mm acrylic cut to fit between the tabs to hold the film flat. I'm in the US so my details may not match European terms. Here, there is a clear acrylic with a finish called 'P99' used for anti-reflection glass in framing. You don't want P95, it's too rough. And you need 3mm (1/8 inch) or thicker to be heavy enough to hold the film down. Put the film in with the emulsion facing down so that the ground acrylic surface is on the smooth side.

I use this setup for 'contact printing.' Then pull out the cut plastic with precise height adjustment for focus and anti-newton ring glass for better files when I need them.

By the way, humidity from home heating and such can affect how film curls.

Looks to me like it is the current version of Kodak 400, which offers just a single "flavour".
It was the former version that came in NC and VC "flavours".

By the way, on APUG you are likely to get flack about talking about the part that deals with the strictly off topic digitization step.

Harry: Curious to understand what you mean by "I do not intend to develop them until the summer when everything in my world is warmer".

Simply because it is much warmer more comftable better light and the water comes out the taps at 23c and I won't be fighting the cold sucking the heat out of my chemicals , another advantage is I can save my colour rolls up and do a bulk batch and use all the chemicals and the negatives will of course dry much quicker hanging in my small opened windowed 25-30c summer bathroom.

Hello all.

Sorry for the late reply. End of the year work madness plus traveling. Anyways, thanks again for the feedback everyone, always thankful!

Dan: Thanks again for the advice on the mod for the Epson film holder. I have a friend who will let me use his Lomo Digitiliza so I will try that before dismantling the Epson one, although I bet I could put it back together since nothing is being broken.
Also, about film curl, I developed quite a bit over the summer, mainly 35mm (Tri-X and Double-X) and since the weather here in Amsterdam is humid I actually thought that it would just be a nightmare but the negs dried real flat. It's just recently that with the heater on (which is so dry that i find myself being hit by static at least once a day) that the negs have become painfully curled and arched. Grin and bear it I guess or wait until summer is here and develop then, but I am not that patient

MattKing: I like what I do and my friends enjoy the images I make of them/us and our surroundings. To me, that's what matters the most and to a certain extent, I bet this goes for all of us. So if some folks on this forum want to give me flack, by all means. But the method to my madness is mine, you know what I mean?

All: Wishing you and yours the best of the best in 2017!

Welcome to APUG

Hi, I was wondering if there was any recent update on the cause of the Rolleiflex double exposure. I shoot transparencies on a 3.5 Automat. Today I received a roll back from the shop which has a double exposure on frame 3 (Provia 100F). I too believed that you couldn't double exposure on this model. The reason I'm asking is that I would very much like to create multiple exposures on the Automat if possible. This camera runs great and has been serviced recently. I have a suspicion that it could be caused by an incomplete forward wind, just enough to charge the shutter. I've not yet experimented with recreating this but plan to do so. Any advice would be appreciated!

Sometimes I have an accidental double exposure with frame 1 (Rolleiflex 3.5F) - I guess it's my fault not winding the crank forward and back ''up to the stop'' after loading film.


Rolleiflex 3.5F - Planar - Neopan 400CN

macfred said:

Sometimes I have an accidental double exposure with frame 1 (Rolleiflex 3.5F) - I guess it's my fault not winding the crank forward and back ''up to the stop'' after loading film.

View attachment 259667
Rolleiflex 3.5F - Planar - Neopan 400CN

Click to expand...

thanks