double/dual-sided photographic paper?

Kim Catton · Mar 10, 2015

Hi all

I've been on the hunt for something I don't even know if exists I figured it was time to ask around. I've done some searches on APUG to see if the topic has already been discussed. Anyhow:

Does such a thing exist? Photographic paper (b/w) that can be exposed on both sides? I don't suppose it does...when I think about, the idea seem ridiculous in many ways. Perhaps someone out there has tried making some themselves?

Athiril · Mar 10, 2015

iirc Lucky made some in RA-4 though.

MartinP · Mar 10, 2015

At first thought, one would think that deep shadows (ie. the brightest part of the exposure you make) would print through slightly as paperbase isn't specifically light-proof. Then I thought of the times I have cut a mask from a test print when the mask seemed to work fine, so maybe only the highest exposures would print through - but it is a moot point as the double-sided paper doesn't exist of course.

An alternative may be to put two sheets of single-weight paper together, but this material is now made only(?) by Slavich, which is not very popular in these parts so I won't be trying it. The glue or tissue used to join the sheets would have a big effect on the finger-feel of the result, and could easily also affect the life of the prints.

For possible brainstorming purposes, what is the aim you are trying to achieve? It sounds like there is something interesting and we might all benefit from thinking around the 'problem' to come up with an alternative solution or two.

paul_c5x4 · Mar 10, 2015

MartinP said:
An alternative may be to put two sheets of single-weight paper together.

Or coat your own paper using a liquid emulsion. You then have the option of coating one side of single weight papers or coating both sides of something heavier.

MartinP · Mar 10, 2015

Good point. I wonder if the problem of printing through dark area could be solved by coating one side, printing, processing and drying - then coating the other side and completing the second exposure?

Has anyone seen any negative* effects when putting a completed print through a normal development process a second time? I can't think of a problem that would arise in theory, as of course there is nothing left to develop on the first print after processing, but liquid emulsion may be mechanically more delicate than factory-coated paper, or the bond between the emulsion and the paper may depend on the size (ie. any coating of the paper prior to the liquid-emulsion) used etc. etc.

*Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Kim Catton · Mar 10, 2015

MartinP said:
At first thought, one would think that deep shadows (ie. the brightest part of the exposure you make) would print through slightly as paperbase isn't specifically light-proof. Then I thought of the times I have cut a mask from a test print when the mask seemed to work fine, so maybe only the highest exposures would print through - but it is a moot point as the double-sided paper doesn't exist of course.

An alternative may be to put two sheets of single-weight paper together, but this material is now made only(?) by Slavich, which is not very popular in these parts so I won't be trying it. The glue or tissue used to join the sheets would have a big effect on the finger-feel of the result, and could easily also affect the life of the prints.

For possible brainstorming purposes, what is the aim you are trying to achieve? It sounds like there is something interesting and we might all benefit from thinking around the 'problem' to come up with an alternative solution or two.

Let me clarify on what I'm trying to achieve. As you said - we might all benefit from it! What I'm trying to do is "simply" put a photographic book - the layout I'm thinking of would need some pages to have images printed on both sides. This is a very natural and easy thing to do in both classic Offset printing as well as using digital techniques. But oh my would it be awesome to hand my bookbinder a one-of-a-kind completely hand-copied photobook.

Mike Crawford · Mar 10, 2015

Quite a few years ago, a friend in Germany showed me a book dummy done using a double sided photographic paper which I think was made by Agfa though would have been on paper from the 70s or possibly 80s. It must have been part of their graphic arts range as I think was quite contrasty as I remember. If more details are required could ask her if she knew the type of paper. It must have had some barrier material in the middle to prevent exposing the other side. I expect there will be a half used box of the stuff in a darkroom in Cologne!

snapguy · Mar 10, 2015

What itis worth

For what it is worth -- I have found over the last half century-plus that printers are kind of cranky and like to do things in the traditional way. For years many would refuse to work from 35mm slides not so much because the smaller than 120 or 4x5 slides are of lower quality but simply because they were not set up for the smaller slides. They had the repro numbers all worked out for the larger slides and didn't want to bother with something new. They may not like your new wrinkle at all.

jeffreyg · Mar 10, 2015

I made a couple of books using double coated paper but I did it with the computer. What I did was to set it up so there was printing on both sides but not back to back images. So as suggested you could coat the opposite side of say 16x20 photographic paper with liquid emulsion and print one image on 1/2 of one side of the sheet and print the other image on the opposite 1/2 of the other side. That way you wouldn't have to worry about exposing one image through the other. Once processed you could trim the paper to the sizes of the book you are planning.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

cmacd123 · Mar 11, 2015

Alaris has been pushing the idea of double sided photo books. Not sure if that is a RA-4 type paper, or something mechanical.

my thought is that it is often a learning process to get an ideal print, and having to remake the first print if the second print did not come out well might be a disincentive to progress. I wonder if it is possible to transfer the emulsion from one substrate to another, perhaps ending up fusing the image layer onto double sided paper intended for spray-can prints.

tkamiya · Mar 11, 2015

I've thought of doing something similar, but I have not actually put it to practice yet.

The way I was going to do this was to print two separate prints, then fuse them back-to-back with more flexible paper in the middle using dry mount tissues. Then bind them together.

I have a huge stock of 5x7 paper, so I might actually try this

piu58 · Mar 12, 2015

> Photographic paper (b/w) that can be exposed on both sides? I do

We had such a paper form ORWO. It was thought for document copyying. A very thin very hard paper, coated on both sides.

"ORWO Dokumentenpapier D" was single sided
"ORWO Dokumentenpapier DD" was double sided

Mike Crawford · Mar 24, 2015

piu58 said:
> Photographic paper (b/w) that can be exposed on both sides? I do

We had such a paper form ORWO. It was thought for document copyying. A very thin very hard paper, coated on both sides.

"ORWO Dokumentenpapier D" was single sided
"ORWO Dokumentenpapier DD" was double sided

I expect the paper I mentioned previously, thinking it was an Agfa one, was the Orwo. Very contrasty as I remember.

When I first started working in London in 1984, we were still producing 'stats' which were quick high contrast prints sized at reproduction size on very thin paper, often using a process camera. Mainly on Agfa Copyproof PMT or Kodak lith paper. (All the lovely original lith paper.) Before Quark and long before InDesign, these were then used to physically plan a magazine or book layout and could be a positional guide for the offset printer. Or for making basic book dummys. Desk top publishing, as it was then called, got rid of all that. The Orwo DD would have been used for the same purpose. Will ask to see if there's any left in my friends darkroom.

removed account4 · Mar 24, 2015

paul_c5x4 said:
Or coat your own paper using a liquid emulsion. You then have the option of coating one side of single weight papers or coating both sides of something heavier.

i second this !

coating paper is not really that hard. expose one side process ... coat the other side and expose that and process.
it doesn't need to be single weight either...
i used to do this with glass plates ( that i coated each side separately and printed on in the darkroom ) it worked great,

it really isn't as hard as it seems..

good luck !
john

Michael L. · Mar 24, 2015

The double-sided "ORWO Dokumentenpapier DD" can occasionally be found on eBay.de (the German site). It will, of course, be long expired, but Orwo paper has excellent keeping properties, and in my experience it is mostly perfectly usable.

double/dual-sided photographic paper?

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