Does staining fiber paper with tea degrade image permanence/archival quality?

aaronheinrich · Sep 22, 2014

I've been experimenting with staining fiber paper lightly with black tea as a method of turning a paper with a pure white base into one with a cream base (rather than using a different paper with a different tonal scale, speed, etc.). The visual effect is good, but can any of the chemists out there speak to the possible effects on image and paper permanence, presuming a thorough post-staining wash? Will the wash effectively remove the tea's acid from the paper?

mesantacruz · Sep 22, 2014

Very interesting question... one can logically deduce that since it's an organic compound that creates the stain, it is prone to breaking down... even in this case, though, i would argue that it would still be more archival than cyanotypes... which i've seen in various galleries sold for ridiculous amounts of money (i only say this because i always thing of cyanotypes when i worry about permanence- rc paper, selenium, etc.). I'm not trying to compare.

scheimfluger_77 · Sep 22, 2014

I think Tim Rudman talks about this in one of his toning books. If I recall, he claims that the tannic acid in the tea actually makes for an archival image. I'm not sure how he came by this conclusion, but I'm pretty sure that was his assertion.

MDR · Sep 23, 2014

There should be no effects on image permanence if you want to protect the image use Agfa Sistan or Fuji AG guard before toning the print.Be careful while handling the print as you should use warm to hot coffee or tea. Fiber works better than RC paper.

Good luck

jimrohrer · Sep 23, 2014

Repairers of older guitars, mandolins, banjos etc... use black tea to artificially "age" new replacement bone parts such as bridges, nuts and tuner knobs so they match with similar parts of the instrument. Can't say how it reacts in regards to paper permanence but it sure works nicely with instruments! Just sayin'
-Jim

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2014

MDR said:
There should be no effects on image permanence if you want to protect the image use Agfa Sistan or Fuji AG guard before toning the print.Be careful while handling the print as you should use warm to hot coffee or tea. Fiber works better than RC paper.

Good luck

How hot in degrees centigrade? I had always thought that both tea and coffee staining was done at room temperature between say 20-25 degrees C depending on what climate you live in.

Are you saying that the staining effect works much better at higher temperatures? Is this something you have observed for yourself by staining at say 20C and staining another copy of the same print at say 30C?

Tim Rudman seems to say that the stain effect is equal at both temperatures but takes longer at the lower temperature. In fact he seems quite indifferent to temperature so I do wonder why he mentions a higher temperature which is why it is useful to know of someone's experience with same print at room and higher temperature.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Dr Croubie · Sep 23, 2014

pentaxuser said:
How hot in degrees centigrade?

Just pour the milk in first so you don't scald the leaves with the boiling water.

Steve Smith · Sep 23, 2014

MDR said:
Fiber works better than RC paper.

I have had success with RC paper. Not sure way fibre should be any better as they both have the emulsion on the surface.

Dr Croubie said:
Just pour the milk in first so you don't scald the leaves with the boiling water.

Please don't ever make tea for me. Milk goes in last!

Steve.

MDR · Sep 23, 2014

The temperature has an effect on the amount and colour of the stain the temp ranges from 23°C to 32 -34°C the higher the temp the deeper the color. I would be careful from around 25°C on it doesn't wash the emulsion off but the emulsion does soften quiet a bit.

Steve in my experience FB has a more uniform stain than RC paper which often exhibits mottling especially glossy RC Paper.

Steve Smith · Sep 23, 2014

MDR said:
Steve in my experience FB has a more uniform stain than RC paper which often exhibits mottling especially glossy RC Paper.

Possibly more to do with the gloss finish than the base as glossy RC is generally more glossy than FB. I have had success with semi matt/satin (whatever they call it) Ilford RC paper.

Steve.

aaronheinrich · Sep 23, 2014

Interesting stuff!

@mesantacruz: Yes, it seems safe to assume the organic compound that's creating the stain would break down; but what would the effects of that decomposition be? Would it result in a deepening stain of the paper over time? Could it affect the silver image?

@scheimfluger_77: I'd read about the benefits to image permanence for cyanotypes, where the tannic acid actually tones the image, but not for silver gelatin, where it just stains the paper and doesn't affect the silver image. It doesn't seem like Rudman would have been talking about cyanotypes.

@MDR: I've been using room temperature tea with continuous agitation on fiber paper for 5 minutes or less. This gives the paper white of the print a uniform, light yellow-brown tint. I'll have to play around with higher temperatures to see what effect it has on the tone.

DREW WILEY · Sep 23, 2014

Any long-term scientific observation of the effects might be nonexistent. Besides, there are all kinds of tea, or coffee for that matter. The coffee
they serve in the office here would probably burn a hole thru the paper - at least it would burn a hole thru my stomach. I bring my own.

dpurdy · Sep 23, 2014

I have stained a lot of prints. I like warm paper. I started doing the tea several years ago. It is not difficult and making it hot is not necessary... except when you brew the pot of tea I guess. My technique became just making a regular pot of black tea at drinking strength and then pouring the pot into my stop bath to make a gallon. Different teas will give slightly different color. I prefer a reddish tea. I vary the amount of stain by varying the time in the stop bath. I found that 30 seconds makes a very light stain and 2 minutes a very thorough stain. This print is about as heavy as I ever stained: http://www.pbase.com/dpurdy/image/96968545
I find no problem with even staining though I have only used glossy fiber paper and usually Ilford MGFB.
Another method I have used with great success is procion [sp?] dye. Get it at an art store in all different colors and mix it with some sodium carbonate and salt. I have stained platinum prints on rag paper with that. It also works on silver. You will have to experiment a lot to find your favorite tint.
I have always thought the tannic acid would wash out but leave the stain... much like a tea drinker's teeth. I also figured if they warm over time that would be ok.
Dennis

polyglot · Sep 23, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Just pour the milk in first so you don't scald the leaves with the boiling water.

Do not let this man near your teapot.

StoneNYC · Sep 23, 2014

polyglot said:
Do not let this man near your teapot.

No kidding! Sheesh! Probably doesn't even use. Temperature gauge before pouring the water on, the art of making tea is much like developing, just the right temperature and time in the water for the perfect cup, too much or too little and you've ruined it.

removed account4 · Sep 23, 2014

i have seen papers stained with tea to look old ( from the 1920s so they are nearly 100 years old )
and i have watched appraisal shows ( like antique roadshow ) where experts spoke of the tea toning
and documents from the 1800s ( being hoaxes &c ) also stained with tea ... and they said nothing about
any sort of archival conservation, and spoke of archival qualities of the work ... for years i stained things with reed dye because i didn't want to deal
with photographic-toners they too (reed dyes ) are made with tannins, and are permanent dyes and are "archival"

if you are very worried, it might be worth calling the northeast document conservation center or a museum and asking them if they see any issues
regarding stability. i think mr rudman is righton ... and i also think it is best to speak with people who are experts with first hand knowledge about the subject.

Jim Noel · Sep 23, 2014

mesantacruz said:
Very interesting question... one can logically deduce that since it's an organic compound that creates the stain, it is prone to breaking down... even in this case, though, i would argue that it would still be more archival than cyanotypes... which i've seen in various galleries sold for ridiculous amounts of money (i only say this because i always thing of cyanotypes when i worry about permanence- rc paper, selenium, etc.). I'm not trying to compare.

Are you saying my 120+ year old cyanotypes are not permanent? THey are one of the most permanent types of images topped only by well processed platinum and palladium.

MattKing · Sep 23, 2014

Jim Noel said:
Are you saying my 120+ year old cyanotypes are not permanent? THey are one of the most permanent types of images topped only by well processed platinum and palladium.

Bad news Jim.

There is a conference happening soon/now where a whole bunch of conservators are discussing the newly discovered and surprising evidence of deterioration of older platinum prints.

Mark Osterman mentioned the problem at the recent Northwest Symposium for Alternative Process Photography.

StoneNYC · Sep 23, 2014

MattKing said:
Bad news Jim.

There is a conference happening soon/now where a whole bunch of conservators are discussing the newly discovered and surprising evidence of deterioration of older platinum prints.

Mark Osterman mentioned the problem at the recent Northwest Symposium for Alternative Process Photography.

There's always carbon... I can't imagine those aren't archival

Does staining fiber paper with tea degrade image permanence/archival quality?

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