Does rapid fixer conflict with Selenium toner?

I recently read a comment (I think it was in a Facebook forum) stating that (Selenium?) toning won't work properly on a print that has been fixed using rapid fixer. If one intends to tone a print, one should use a traditional, not rapid, not hardening, fixer.
I applied Selenium toning to some Lith prints recently and the toning didn't seem to have much effect, while in the past the effect was significant.
Does rapid fixer indeed conflict with Selenium toner?

Selenium toner has a significant amount of fixer in it, so the answer is no.

No it doesn't. Most of the claims about rapid fixer affecting subsequent toning exist at far remove from imaging science or practical usage.

Ron789 said:

If one intends to tone a print, one should use a traditional, not rapid, not hardening, fixer.

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No, it works fine with rapid fixer. My guess is that this person fears that a hardening fixer (not necessarily a rapid one!) prevents the toner from permeating the emulsion and doing its work. Indeed, a hardened emulsion may tone slower, but it will still work fine.

There's a lot of variables involved when toning prints, but fixer is most likely not significant. The same applies to lith prints.
Type of paper, age and dilution of lith developer, as well as dilution of toner and time in toner will affect your final result.

I used rapid fixer to fix prints for 15 years; and every print was toned, most in selenium. Rapid fix never affected toning in any toner I used on any paper.

With 6 resounding denials it looks as if I may need to reconsider my slavish belief in everything I read on Facebook

pentaxuser

Thank you all! Your responses are very clear and make perfect sense. I will continue using rapid fix.

A quick comment:

The recommendation to use a plain hypo fixer before toning comes from Ansel Adams (in his book, The Print). He recommended using a non-hardening not-too-acidic fixer immediately before toning to prevent staining. He transferred his prints directly from the second fixer to the toner without an intermediate wash, as do I.

When the book was written, most fixers were quite acidic, and transferring from such a fix directly to the toner would, indeed, cause staining. The plain hypo fix was Adams' answer.

I use Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam almost exclusively for printing these days and transfer my prints directly from bath two to the toner. My fix is mixed at "print strength," i.e, the 1+9 dilution. I have zero problems with staining or toning.

If you're interested in replenishing and reusing your toner, search on my name for more info. I have jugs of selenium toner that have been going longer than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

A quick comment:

The recommendation to use a plain hypo fixer before toning comes from Ansel Adams (in his book, The Print). He recommended using a non-hardening not-too-acidic fixer immediately before toning to prevent staining. He transferred his prints directly from the second fixer to the toner without an intermediate wash, as do I.

When the book was written, most fixers were quite acidic, and transferring from such a fix directly to the toner would, indeed, cause staining. The plain hypo fix was Adams' answer.

I use Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam almost exclusively for printing these days and transfer my prints directly from bath two to the toner. My fix is mixed at "print strength," i.e, the 1+9 dilution. I have zero problems with staining or toning.

If you're interested in replenishing and reusing your toner, search on my name for more info. I have jugs of selenium toner that have been going longer than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

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As I'm sure you know, staining in selenium toner indicates inadequate fixing. Lately I've been using Ilford's recommended short fix in film strength rapid fix, in part because I haven't found time for printing. I use one session for 8 to 12 prints, then toss. I've never had any problems toning prints using any hardening fixer. But I know that unless you have softened the emulsion (usually really warm solutions for me ) no hardener needed.

Hardener in fix might be an issue with some toning methods, but as most have stated, most likely not an issue, especially if one is toning to completion or for an obvious color shift that can be stopped.

I selenium toned Portiga Rapid III for a specific color that was easy to 'miss'...taking the paper from its native warm-greenish black to a beautiful reddish brown...but stopping it quickly before it turned to almost a purpleish red/brown that I did not care for. When printing for a show matching the print color was important to me, so I worked out a way to insure that I could hit the right color every time. They were 7x20 or 16x20 prints and I had no 'extra' prints to spare.

So I kept as many factors the same as possible. Same paper, obviously. Same developer/dilution/time. Rapid Fix with reduced hardener (half of 'normal'). I tried going without any hardener, but my FB paper dried face down on the racks sometimes picked up permanent cross-hatched screen marks. The paper tended to spend a lot of time in the water and the emulsion could get fairly soft.

Same washing regime for all the prints. Prints are dried, then later toned after a good re-soaking. Toner dilution, temperature, and time exactly the same...1:16, 110F, 45 seconds, drain for 15 seconds, then into HCA, then water. Certainly not the usual way, but it was taught to me by Thomas Joshua Cooper in 1980 (give or take a year or two). The color shift in the paper was difficult to see and judge...and happened quickly. Since I could get the color I wanted, I did not want to change...and I did not until the paper did...and then disappeared. Ilford Gallerie I just toned to completion to get the color I wanted...heck of a lot easier...the paper went from slightly warm to neutral with some intensification.

One of the nice things about platinum printing and carbon printing -- no need to selenium tone for color or better permanence.

I have found staining when I go straight from rapid fix to selenium toner. So I wash between fix and toning then wash again.

I was using Kodak rapid fixer without the part B

Bill,

Staining happens for two reasons: Inadequate fixation as mentioned by mshchem above, and when the fix is too acidic and the print is transferred directly to the toner.

I'll bet if you try, say Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 (non-hardening and what I use) or some other neutral or more-alkaline fixer immediately before your toner, you'll not have stains (assuming, of course, that you're not overusing your fixer!).

Best,

Doremus

We had a bit of discussion on this... so I am not sure what's really the reason for the stain I got from going from fix to toner.

But I also don't want to put fixer into the toner. Likewise I don't want to put hypo clear into the toner like Ansel Adams did, for the same reason. I don't want to throw out the selenium when something else in the toner becomes exhausted.

So I will be washing after fix and then toning, then washing again.

I may change the time that I fix. I have the residual hypo check kit from Photographers Formulary that I can try to find the right time to fix. I know, one or two minutes might be actually correct and I am likely over-fixing.

Bill Burk said:

.........
But I also don't want to put fixer into the toner.......

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There is already a lot of thiosulphate in KRST.

Time after time I'm impressed by the huge amount of knowledge and experience on this forum, along with the willingness to share this and help others!

john_s said:

There is already a lot of thiosulphate in KRST.

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I see. Maybe that’s why my prints are not under fixed...

There's an old post somewhere (not APUG) about the beginnings of selenium toner. In particular, I found it interesting that the selenium compound in toner is actually thiosulphate with one sulphur atom replaced by a seIenium atom if I remember correctly. I could find it if anyone's interested.

Also, the thiosulphate is added to aid stability and reduce staining.

Doremus Scudder said:

Bill,

Staining happens for two reasons: Inadequate fixation as mentioned by mshchem above, and when the fix is too acidic and the print is transferred directly to the toner.

I'll bet if you try, say Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 (non-hardening and what I use) or some other neutral or more-alkaline fixer immediately before your toner, you'll not have stains (assuming, of course, that you're not overusing your fixer!).

Best,

Doremus

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Hey Doremus. I always appreciate your insight. Your posts continually pop up whenever I google something, and I actually registered on this forum to respond to this post (and otherwise get involved in this wonderful community).

I have read so much about going directly from fixer to toner, and why that is a bad idea and how it causes staining. However, it seems as though the issue is that when you have a particularly acidic fixer, that is when the staining arises in the selenium, which requires a more neutral or alkaline environment. Am I understanding that correctly?

So, you say that perhaps using Ilford Rapid Fix or a more neutral fixer (perhaps Legacy Pro alkaline fixer?) would allow one to go directly from fixer to toner without fear of staining. So, I looked up the PH of Ilford Rapid Fixer as well as Kodak Rapid Fix sans hardener, and it seems as though both of these solutions have a PH of around 5.0, per the manufacturer data sheets. So, do you think there is any importance difference or reason why I would want to use Ilford rapid versus Kodak rapid (without hardener) prior to toning?

Lastly, is there any downside or danger to rinsing the prints off in between fixer and toner for say, 5 minutes, regardless of the PH of the fixer?

Thanks so much for your knowledge and your help.

Josh

Doremus Scudder said:

Bill,

Staining happens for two reasons: Inadequate fixation as mentioned by mshchem above, and when the fix is too acidic and the print is transferred directly to the toner.

I'll bet if you try, say Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 (non-hardening and what I use) or some other neutral or more-alkaline fixer immediately before your toner, you'll not have stains (assuming, of course, that you're not overusing your fixer!).

Best,

Doremus

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I’m with Bill on this. I do fix my prints adequately (Ilford MG FB in two successive baths of Ilford Rapid Fix 1+9 for 1 min each), but I found I had to wash well between fix and toner to eliminate all risk of staining. Additionally, I take care that prints are fully covered in the fixer baths and agitated continuously.

Is it possible that the hardness/alkalinity of the water supply is involved? I’m in a hard water area.

A full wash (maybe 30 minutes) before toning helps me avoid staining. Probably avoids contaminating the toner.

If your chemicals or the process steps you follow will cause stains, you will see the stain immediately. It’s not like the stains of under-fixing or incomplete washing which have a delayed appearance.

If you look at your finished prints, you will catch it before it goes on too long.

Keep a good print on the same paper handy for reference. Sometimes the stain is overall and just looks like slightly yellowed paper.

But most of the time it shows as a brown streak, splash or specks.

I transfer prints directly from the second fixing bath to the toner. No problems and no staining except in one case where the fix inadvertently got overused.

My workflow is as follows:

Develop, stop (acetic acid stop) and fix in bath one, which is Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam 1+9. (I've used other fixers in the past, including TF-4 with fine results too).

I then, usually, wash and dry the prints and select the ones that merit keeping. After I've collected a number of these (usually a days worth of toning), I'll have a toning session.

The toning sessions consists of:

Water soak (five minutes), fixing bath two (also Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam 1+9), selenium toner, water rinse, wash-aid and then final wash.

Note that not only do I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the toner, but I also replenish and reuse my toner indefinitely. I filter it through coffee filters or filter paper before and after each use. The black sediment that is filtered out is likely selenium bound to silver compounds in the carried-over fixer. The prints tone just fine and, most importantly, pass the tests for residual silver (and hypo) with flying colors.

When I decide to print and tone in a single session, instead of dividing my workflow into printing and toning sessions, my regime is as follows:

Develop, stop, fix one, water rinse in running water tray, 2 minutes, fix two, toner, water rinse again (I use the same running water tray, which is simply a tray with some drain holes drilled at the bottom front corner and a water feed from the opposite end), and, finally, a 60-minute wash.

No staining ever from this workflow either. Note that I add a water rinse between the two fixing baths. I'm not really sure this is necessary, but I've got the running-water tray there all the time and I figure removing some of those soluble silver halides before fix two can't hurt.

It's important to know that with a a one-bath fixing regime, the capacity of the fixer is rather low and staining in the toner will occur once the fixer is exhausted enough to leave behind silver-thiosulfate compounds that attract the toner. This can happen fairly early, even after only 10-12 8x10s per liter of working strength fixer. Also keep in mind that using Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam at the 1+3 dilution makes it more acidic, which can cause staining too.

The usual culprits for stains from transferring prints directly from the fix to selenium toner are 1) inadequate fixing, either from exhausted fixer or too-short fixing times and 2) the fix being too acidic, which reacts with the toner causing a general, overall yellowing.

Washing before toning is certainly not going to harm anything, it's just an added step. And, it won't make up for inadequate fixing either, so watch your fixer capacities.

If you get staining of prints partway or most of the way through a session, but not earlier, it is almost certain that you've overused your fixer. Two-bath fixing helps a lot in this regard.

Hope this helps,

Doremus