Does Paper developer go bad, useless?

I tried printing tonight (in my "new" darkroom) again for the first time in about a year.

Well anyways, I exposed a test print, put it in the developer and after 30 seconds I didn't see any image forming. Processed it the rest of the way and the there was NOTHING on the paper, as if it wasn't exposed at all.

This is Ilford PQ universal paper developer. I opened the concentrate about a year ago and used about half. I mixed some new from the concentrate today. Is the developer just so old it's bad? I figured I'd at least get an image. :confused:

There's every chance it has gone bad. I'm not sure what the keeping qualities of this developer are but I wouldn't expect to get good results after a year with any developer.

Paper developer is normally a higher-activity developer than developer for film, and yes it goes bad, and quicker than many film developers. Have you tried putting a piece of your paper in the developer, then turning on the white lights and seeing if it will develop to full black?

Paper dev tends to go off pretty quickly once opened. It certainly wont last a year. Most devs will go yellow or brown as they age, so if you see any colour change dump it and get some more. It's very cheap.

David.

hammy said:

I tried printing tonight (in my "new" darkroom) again for the first time in about a year.

Well anyways, I exposed a test print, put it in the developer and after 30 seconds I didn't see any image forming. Processed it the rest of the way and the there was NOTHING on the paper, as if it wasn't exposed at all.

This is Ilford PQ universal paper developer. I opened the concentrate about a year ago and used about half. I mixed some new from the concentrate today. Is the developer just so old it's bad? I figured I'd at least get an image. :confused:

Click to expand...

With Ilford PQ universal concentrate, color change is not a good indicator of activity (or lack thereof).

PQ Universal is a Phenidone/Hydroquinone developer. Both the phenidone and the hydroquinone may deteriorate with age in the concentrated solution, phenidone does not discolor as it ages, but the hydroquinone may discolor.

In my experience, a partially filled bottle of PQ Universal concentrate will last for about 3 to 6 months. You can extend the storage life after opening the Ilford factory container by re-packaging the remaining concentrate in completely filled and sealed amber glass bottles (i.e. Boston Rounds).

I test the activity of the developer concentrate by placing a few droplets of the concentrate on a 1 inch piece of 35mm film (with the room lights on). If the film quickly turns black at the spots wet by the concentrated developer, the concentrate is still active.

It's unusual that you're getting no activity at all. Developers fail gradually. I've used two- and three-year-old concentrated developers and had them work (I agree that it's suboptimal). I'd guess that you should have some density, if not good dark density.

What colour is the concentrate? The darker it is, the less likely it is any good. (There are a few exceptions. Rodinal film developer can go nearly black and still be fine.)

A safe move would be to get some fresh developer and see if that works. If so then your theory is probably right.

Powdered developers are worth considering. The powders generally keep for many years. Once mixed, the stock solutions will keep six months (Dektol) to a couple of years (Ansco 130). Get small enough packages that you'll use up your stock solution before it gets old, and have a lot of them so that you can develop later and not worry about whether the developer is bad. Just mix it up the day before you need it again.

PHOTOTONE said:

Paper developer is normally a higher-activity developer than developer for film, and yes it goes bad, and quicker than many film developers. Have you tried putting a piece of your paper in the developer, then turning on the white lights and seeing if it will develop to full black?

Click to expand...

Just a warning that this does not always work. If a paper has incorporated chemistry to boost development then wetting of any sort, (water then developer or developer alone) and flashing can give a weak image or no image in a developer.

The best is to turn on the lights and then place the paper into the developer.

PE

Yes, it goes bad. Yesterday I opened a factory-sealed package of Dektol that I bought about 2 years ago, and have been storing in a cabinet in a climate-controlled laundry room.

As soon as I opened it, I saw that the normally-white powder had turned a reddish dark brown. I threw it away. Fortunately, as I wanted to print that day, I had another package that I bought a few weeks ago.

Pat

PhotoJim said:

It's unusual that you're getting no activity at all. Developers fail gradually...

Click to expand...

In solution, Phenidone can fail rapidly with no solution color change.

Tom Hoskinson said:

In solution, Phenidone can fail rapidly with no solution color change.

Click to expand...

True, and ditto for ascorbate developers.

Thanks for the info everyone.

The concentrate was a dark brown. I didn't remember it being that color but went ahead anyways. Even when diluted to 1+14 it was still dark brown.

I'm going down to get some new developer today

Many developer concentrates and working solutions have surprsingly poor shelf life. I find that one of the best is Dektol powder, stock solution and working solution. The powder will last for over a year unopened, and the stock soluton with last 2 or 3 months in partially full bottles. Longer if full.

The working strength such as 1:3 will last for at least 2 days with no significant change and will process a load of prints before any significant change. This is done by testing 1 liter of developer in an 8x10 open tray.

It is usable for several days with an adjustment in development time.

Some developers go bad much more quickly than this. And, with some it is impossible to recover the original activity by increasing development time.

I have been running developer keeping tests for over a year now and testing to see what can be done to improve the situation. I would second the notes above about ascorbic acid developers, phenidone developers and I would like to add that developers that have high pH or low amounts of buffer in them keep poorly as well.

Dimezone and its derivatives, HQ and Metol are the best as is either a high level of carbonate or borate or a low pH.

This is also true of film developers. I will be working on them next. But there, the problem is also to get good image structure. It is pretty hard to mess up the image structure of paper. Basically, with paper it is a question of the tone of the silver image.

PE

Yep.... it was the developer. Forgot the stuff is supposed to be clear
I never realized how quickly developer goes bad.

Photo Engineer said:

The working strength such as 1:3 will last for at least 2 days with no significant change and will process a load of prints before any significant change. This is done by testing 1 liter of developer in an 8x10 open tray.

It is usable for several days with an adjustment in development time.

Click to expand...

I've been dumping my Dektol after each printing session (in which I probably only put through about 6-7 8x10's max.) Thanks for the info, I'll save some the next time I plan to print the next day.

btw - my dektol stock solution usually always mixes up brown - I've never noticed any bad side effects.

How does freezing powdered developer stack up Ron? I've got a lot of Selektol-Soft I want to preserve, is it likely to last 2 or 3 years in the freezer?

Freezing developer may cause deterioration due to moisture. Seal it in a plastic bag first before freezing. It might help. IDK for sure.

PE

Resurrecting an older thread here... Question steered towards PE, but of course all are welcome to chime in:

Can dimezone be substituted for phenidone 1:1, or is it some other ratio? I was a bit surprised to see no mention of this in the Darkroom Cookbook.

To put this in context, I basically want to mix D-72/Dektol, but with dimezone substituted for metol.

Anything special I should know about before proceeding?

Thanks...

You would have to do this by trial and error. There is no rule as to substitution of dimezone for phenidone due to interactions between other developers and ingredients as well as pH effects.

PE

I was on the trip round Ilford which must have been almost a year ago as this year's trip was today.

Ilford were kind enough to give us, amongst other things, a litre of Cooltone developer. I cannot give an exact date of opening but anxious to give it a try it cannot have been long after we got back from the trip.

I have been a particularly low volume user this year and still have some concentrate left with which I re-filled from scratch my Nova slot processor a couple of weeks ago. The prints I did last night are fine.

OK Cooltone may not be PQ but the only other possible difference is that each time I used the concentrate, I used Protectan gas to cover the remainder. The concentrate has been opened a good number of times in the course of the year

So you may have been unlucky to find the developer has exhausted. Unless my experience is unusual then provided that some form of gas is used to prevent oxygen getting to it, a year's use for concentrate certainly seems possible.

I have been highly impressed with Cooltone developer in its action and longevity and just thought I'd share my experience. It's fitting to be able to do so when Ilford have taken the trouble to run what has proved to be another excellent tour, based on a few posts from the early returners.

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer said:

Just a warning that this does not always work. If a paper has incorporated chemistry to boost development then wetting of any sort, (water then developer or developer alone) and flashing can give a weak image or no image in a developer.

The best is to turn on the lights and then place the paper into the developer.

Click to expand...

PE,

Could you please explain the effects behind this different behaviour of the paper.

If a paper is a DI (developer incorporated) paper, then dipping into an inactive developer or weak developer and then flashing will allow developer to diffuse out before the flash, but if the procedure is reversed, flashing then dipping, the image will be stronger by comparison as the exposure and developer (alkali) hits the paper before the DI is significantly diluted.

OTOH, there are papers that are inactivated by developers. Some pure chloride or high chloride papers can be dipped into a bromide containing developer and become insensitive (or pretty much so) to light so that flashing after immersion will give no image, but flashing before immersion will give an image.

This is a very complex thing that has to be thought out ahead.

PE

Thanks.

Intriguing indeed.