Does anyone subcoat cyanotype?

athanasius80 · Feb 23, 2008

Here's my situation. I'm printing cyanotypes onto Arches Platine, and I can't get the paper grain to ever completely disappear. (See example below.) Would subbing with arrowroot starch or gelatin help smooth this out?

I'm using traditional cyanotype, in this case two parts Solution A to one part Solution B. No dichromate. Double coated on Arches Platine and exposed with a light box. Negative was Polaroid type 55.

Thanks, I'd love to hear any advice!

(Oh yeah, disregard the vertical line on the left. Its CSS: Crappy Scanner Syndrone)

keithwms · Feb 23, 2008

I recall that Ron (Photo Engineer) suggested a gelatin sub and said that it worked well. You might search the recent threads for that comment.

P.S. Okay here is the thread...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

...and comment:

Photo Engineer said:
Make up a 20% gelatin mixture (weight / weight) or 20 g of gelatin in a total of 100 g of solution by adding Distilled Water (DW).

Make up your normal cyanotype solution.

Mix 1 part of the gelatin solution with 1 part of the cyanotype, so that the cyanotype is 1/2 normal concentration and the gelatin is now 10% wt/wt.

Coat using some conventional method such as a brush. I've used a brush and my coating blades both. You will have to use 2x the normal cyanotype coating level due to dilution effects and may have to add a surfactant.

You probably will also have to add a hardener such as glyoxal.

Dry, expose and process as normal and enjoy the results of your labor.

Coating this on baryta support gives a particuarly beautiful glossy result.

PE

gandolfi · Feb 24, 2008

athanasius80 said:
Here's my situation. I'm printing cyanotypes onto Arches Platine, and I can't get the paper grain to ever completely disappear. (See example below.) Would subbing with arrowroot starch or gelatin help smooth this out?

I'm using traditional cyanotype, in this case two parts Solution A to one part Solution B. No dichromate. Double coated on Arches Platine and exposed with a light box. Negative was Polaroid type 55.

Thanks, I'd love to hear any advice!

(Oh yeah, disregard the vertical line on the left. Its CSS: Crappy Scanner Syndrone)

allright - I don't know Arches, bu tI have done cyanotypes for a long time.
my experience: the small fibers in these papers will rise, when getting wet.
Subbing might help, but here is another suggestion.

cut a piece of thick cardboard or plexiglass in the size of the final print. make it a little smaller than the paper. make the paper damp, and run it with the cardboard through a graphic press.
result: the area with the cardboard will be compressed and the fibers will not rise as much as before. thus the image will look sharper.
bonus: the broder of the cardboard will give an impression of framing (as in the classical etchings).

(if you make the cardboard as big as the paper, you will not get the framing impression..)

donbga · Feb 24, 2008

gandolfi said:
and run it with the cardboard through a graphic press.

One can use a vacuum easel as well.

As for gelatin sizing Platine, IMO it shouldn't be necessary. How are you coating the paper? Platine produces very smooth prints if coated with care.

athanasius80 · Feb 24, 2008

I'm coating by artists paintbrush. I dip the brush in distilled water and run the brush between two fingers to squeeze out excess. Then I dip the brush in cyanotype solution and blot the top of the brush against the side of my beaker. Coat the paper up and down and side to side and let dry. Recoat, dry again, and expose.

Any ideas, suggestions, or hints?

Photo Engineer · Feb 24, 2008

Ahh, I see what you mean Chris. No, I never subbed with gelatin, but I did coat cyanotype from gelatin onto baryta and it gave a very sharp smooth image with no heavy grain pattern.

PE

donbga · Feb 24, 2008

athanasius80 said:
I'm coating by artists paintbrush. I dip the brush in distilled water and run the brush between two fingers to squeeze out excess. Then I dip the brush in cyanotype solution and blot the top of the brush against the side of my beaker. Coat the paper up and down and side to side and let dry. Recoat, dry again, and expose.

Any ideas, suggestions, or hints?

I'm not sure what you mean by artists paint brush. And why the soak in distilled water. Is your brush a synthetic sable type brush.

Try using 2 parts A and 1 part B and single coating. A drop or two of a 20% solution Tween 20 may help also. Platine should produce very smooth prints, it is very similar to Cot 320.

keithwms · Feb 25, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Ahh, I see what you mean Chris. No, I never subbed with gelatin...

I used your name in vain!

numnutz · Feb 26, 2008

Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
Make up a 20% gelatin mixture (weight / weight) or 20 g of gelatin in a total of 100 g of solution by adding Distilled Water (DW).

Make up your normal cyanotype solution.

Mix 1 part of the gelatin solution with 1 part of the cyanotype, so that the cyanotype is 1/2 normal concentration and the gelatin is now 10% wt/wt.

Coat using some conventional method such as a brush. I've used a brush and my coating blades both. You will have to use 2x the normal cyanotype coating level due to dilution effects and may have to add a surfactant.

You probably will also have to add a hardener such as glyoxal.

Dry, expose and process as normal and enjoy the results of your labor.

Coating this on baryta support gives a particuarly beautiful glossy result.

PE

Would this technique work with Van dyke browns? Is is worth experimenting with?

Thanks in advance

nn

Photo Engineer · Feb 26, 2008

Yes, it will, but it will not work with Pt or Pd.

PE

donbga · Feb 26, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, it will, but it will not work with Pt or Pd.

PE

So you've tried this with cyanotype and/or VDB?

Photo Engineer · Feb 26, 2008

Both.

PE

Edward · Feb 28, 2008

Hake brush?

I had a very similar problem with Platine and cyanotype. I was using the Richeson "magic" brush. I went back to good old cheap hake and my problem went away. Why is this? I'll leave that question to those more expert than I. Maybe I was not getting enough cyanotype onto the paper; maybe cyanotype soaks into the paper in a different way than pt-pd. Hake uses much more chemical, but then cyanotype is cheap.
I don't know what "artist's brush" you are using, but you might try hake.
By the way, I do find the magic brush lives up to its name with platinum and palladium, but not cyanotype.

Does anyone subcoat cyanotype?

athanasius80

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