I mean, they lack the experience in taking optics to the nth degree. And I don't what to hear how the Nikon 20mm 1.8 G beats the pants off the Zeiss-for-Nikon 21mm. The Zeiss will have sparkle & a mysterious color that even Leica can' match. Cheers
Does anyone here beleive that Nikon/Canon could make lenses as good as Leica/Zeiss?
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Seems to me it doesn't matter, they sell very well and the output is mostly satisfying for the end use.
I don't think its a matter of experience or skills but that they don't want or need to. Its not what the majority of canikon owners want.
I don't think its a matter of experience or skills but that they don't want or need to. Its not what the majority of canikon owners want.
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MattKing
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Yes. In many cases, better.
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Nikon and Canon lack experience with optics?
Yeah, right.
Given the same price, they will be about the same. But they aren't the same price, are they?
Yeah, right.
Given the same price, they will be about the same. But they aren't the same price, are they?
Besides subjective "proof" like Sparkle And Mysterious Color.....is there any Concrete/Scientific/Objective proof showing that Canon/Nikon do not already make lens as good as the others.?
Especially with older rangefinder lenses, Nikon and Canon could easily compete with the best from Leica or Zeiss. Certain brands and certain lenses may have a characteristic "look", and if that suits your vision and intent, then use those lenses.
It's really splitting hairs, though. A successful photo depends much more on the photographer's skill than on whether brand X, Y or Z was used.
It's really splitting hairs, though. A successful photo depends much more on the photographer's skill than on whether brand X, Y or Z was used.
Mysterious color! Is that a quality? I thought it was something to avoid 
Can and already do.
Quantify your assertion that Zeiss has "sparkle and mysterious color".
To be frank, none of the major players is making bad lenses these days and mostly they're good enough to out-resolve our recording media. Decades ago, computer design allowed the engineering design of effectively perfect optics. Manufacturing processes have slowly caught up to the point that we're starting to see the ability to mass produce lenses that achieve a closeness to the design that was available only in hand produced lenses just a decade or two ago. When you see a lens on the market that measures poorly (by today's standards), it's almost inevitably because the lens is being built to fit a price point and manufacturing concessions were made that keep the lens from realizing the potential of the design. Or it's been whacked around a bit in shipping/selling. You guys really should be reading the lensrentals.com blog about lens testing and defects with lenses if you've an interest in this stuff.
Quantify your assertion that Zeiss has "sparkle and mysterious color".
To be frank, none of the major players is making bad lenses these days and mostly they're good enough to out-resolve our recording media. Decades ago, computer design allowed the engineering design of effectively perfect optics. Manufacturing processes have slowly caught up to the point that we're starting to see the ability to mass produce lenses that achieve a closeness to the design that was available only in hand produced lenses just a decade or two ago. When you see a lens on the market that measures poorly (by today's standards), it's almost inevitably because the lens is being built to fit a price point and manufacturing concessions were made that keep the lens from realizing the potential of the design. Or it's been whacked around a bit in shipping/selling. You guys really should be reading the lensrentals.com blog about lens testing and defects with lenses if you've an interest in this stuff.
Regarding your question in the thread title...
In the old days, individual expertise and corporate knowledge were important in creating good lenses.
In the modern era, anybody with the will ($$$) to do so can produce lenses at the limit of technology.
All aspects of design and manufacture are under computer control.
That's why I standardize on one manufacturer for the lenses on each camera.
But the effect is very slight, only noticeable in certain situations. And there's nothing "mysterious" about it.
Sparkle, on the other hand...
If you want to bet the ranch on your ability to accurately identify the presence or absence thereof 10 out of 10 times...
I'll happily take possession of your ranch.
- Leigh
In the old days, individual expertise and corporate knowledge were important in creating good lenses.
In the modern era, anybody with the will ($$$) to do so can produce lenses at the limit of technology.
All aspects of design and manufacture are under computer control.
Lenses do have a slight color bias, due to the different anti-reflection coatings used by different companies.
That's why I standardize on one manufacturer for the lenses on each camera.
But the effect is very slight, only noticeable in certain situations. And there's nothing "mysterious" about it.
Sparkle, on the other hand...
If you want to bet the ranch on your ability to accurately identify the presence or absence thereof 10 out of 10 times...
I'll happily take possession of your ranch.
- Leigh
Back in the day when lenses were designed and built by hand Zeiss was putting the man hours in to build amazing lenses but that meant they cost big bucks. Something Nikon and Canon could have done if they so chose to but that wasn' t their market. Now days with computer aided design and build they are getting amazing quality lenses just not capable of in the old days. At affordable prices. Question now is can Zeiss keep up.
"Lack of experience in taking optics to the nth degree"??
Oh dear. That must be a throw-away line to end them all.
It probably does. Have you tried it??
It is the reality check worth taking: The little Nikon is twice as fast, lighter and cheaper. What's ideal about lugging a 720g lens about on a camera that might just also weigh close to that too, equalling ... how many kilos!?
Look, I think a great many Canon L-series lenses and those from Nikon are much better, optically and technically, than Zeiss (or Sony-Zeiss — who exactly are you referring to??). Why is it necessary to pay thousands and thousands for a Zeiss when there are alternatives. What is the driving force? Ego??
It must be remembered the Japanese weren't laggards while Zeiss was still pottering around with its Distagon layouts. And remember too that part of the success story with Zeiss is due to its partnership with Sony!
I would like more information/image evidence of this "sparkle and mysterious colour".
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Ok. Busted, next 
But then again all that said sometimes older lensdesigns not just zeiss and leitz with all their imperfections, more or less well controlled optical flaws and simple designs just produce images that are not so clinical and "cold" the modern ones does. Perfect by all means is not always best.
But then again all that said sometimes older lensdesigns not just zeiss and leitz with all their imperfections, more or less well controlled optical flaws and simple designs just produce images that are not so clinical and "cold" the modern ones does. Perfect by all means is not always best.
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Do they?
If you want "mysterious color" just look at a Zeiss slide. I'm tired of all these barfbutts who only know how to look at everything but what a lens can do in the flesh. I have Zeiss slides & Nikon slides, and a Zeiss loupe & a Nikon loupe---the difference is overwhelming to my well-trained eye.
Let me ask, which exact lenses are you talking about? The Cosina made zf's or.....?
Chip. you're missing why Leica and Zeiss lenses differ from Canon and Bikon. They use quite different design criteria particularly when it comes to definition and micro contrast. It then comes down to personal preferences as a use which lenses you prefer and many prefer the Cano/Nikon look.
Personally I happen to prefer German lenses, the quality from my Summicron is outstanding. But of course CAnon & Nikon make superblenses they are just differentto Leica & Zeiss.
Ian
Personally I happen to prefer German lenses, the quality from my Summicron is outstanding. But of course CAnon & Nikon make superblenses they are just differentto Leica & Zeiss.
Ian
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- Theo Sulphate
- Deleted
My lenses like your lenses Chip and just about everyone's lenses are much better optics than the owners are photographers. I suggest you stop being a lens snob and go out and take some significant pictures with the ones you have. people agonize about if Leitz or Zeiss lenses are better each other or than Canon or Nikon when their total photographic output amounts to a few snaps of the wife and kids with aunty Mary at the seaside. I have used Canon cameras and lenses for about thirty five years and have never felt the need to bother looking at any other because Leica or Zeiss ones wouldn't make me a better photographer only a more broke one.
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People love their Holga, Personally I think people get to tied up with gear, buy a Leica M6 shove a grands worth of lens on it brag a lot but your pictures are worse then when you used your Zorki 4 and Jupiter 8 lens at least then you tried with you photography..
To be short: Bullshit.
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A well composed image will win contests over a technically superior image that lacks composition. Been there done that bought the tee shirt.
Unless you are shooting test patterns, the average person can't tell the difference between a Rokkor and a Nikkor, but tell them the image was made with a Nikkor and they will rate it higher than a Rokkor produced image.
I used to enter contest with images made with a Minolta XG-1 and Rokkor lens, but told them it was shot with a Nikon and Nikkor lens.Not to my surprise those entires always did better than the images entered as Minolta/Rokkor.
And some times just getting the shot...
Unless you are shooting test patterns, the average person can't tell the difference between a Rokkor and a Nikkor, but tell them the image was made with a Nikkor and they will rate it higher than a Rokkor produced image.
I used to enter contest with images made with a Minolta XG-1 and Rokkor lens, but told them it was shot with a Nikon and Nikkor lens.Not to my surprise those entires always did better than the images entered as Minolta/Rokkor.
And some times just getting the shot...
Hey, everyone, this is a troll. And you have all bitten at the bait?
No discussion points from the OP at all, just a quick and short post on the "I just think that" basis.
Time wasting...
Is this what APUG is now down to? Soon we will be as bad as p... no, I won't name it.
Small things amuse... but I remember this site as it was, and I expect better.
Disgusted.
No discussion points from the OP at all, just a quick and short post on the "I just think that" basis.
Time wasting...
Is this what APUG is now down to? Soon we will be as bad as p... no, I won't name it.
Small things amuse... but I remember this site as it was, and I expect better.
Disgusted.
Yes, ozmoose, I also have the feeling that this site is slowly going down the drain.
I posted in the thread for only one reason... the archives.
If such threads just died a natural death and disappeared, I would never bother posting to this and similar.
But they get archived and newbies will pull them up later and believe them.
This is the situation I'm trying to address.
- Leigh
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