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DREW WILEY

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I don't think I'd want to board and airliner if the pilot never had experience except in a flight simulator, and never with a real plane. Fortunately, a
dodging and burning mishap in the darkroom is not fatal, and is not going to cost you anything except another sheet of paper. It is best learned by doing.
 

RobC

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I mean that you can generally learn about dodging and burning by reading, but one must actually do it and have successes and failures to really learn it. The doing gets one to the point that they can reproduce consistent results. I find that when I read something new, I have to go into the darkroom work with it for a while. Then go back and read more, and back into the darkroom.
+1

What I think a lot of beginers think is that they can fire off a roll of 36 exposure film, go into darkroom, develop and print all 36 frames and be out again in an evening. Nope, it ain't like that. Well not until you get really really good at it and even then you'll only get decent quality works in an evenings work and not fine prints that have been burnt and dodged. That takes a lot more time and effort.
So get your head down and practice, practice and practice some more and it will become a lot easier and more intuitive.
 
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larfe

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So that thread is still going good stuff. I will report my newly discovered things.

So I was doing this print earlier today and wanted to darken one part to pure black. Somehow dialled in +4 stops in the timer and held a dodge tool over the particular area.
For some reasons the parts that I held back with the dodge tools kept being fogged and I couldn't figure out where the fogging light came from.

Changed the easel to a black one as well as some other things and did a test with a piece of paper with a coin on it and held the dodge tool over this for the same amount of time I would have given to the print.

To my surprise the piece of paper was fogged upon developing except for the part where the coin was. I came to the conclusion that light rays must bend somehow around the dodge tool and onto the paper. And yes I did check that the black card with which I make my dodge tools was proper opaque, holding a full sheet of this particular card with a hole in it (as if to burn) holds back all of the light.

This brings me back to what Bob Carnie was saying about dodging to see the detail and bleach to bring back the highlights.

Comments?
 
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larfe

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In fact Gene Nocon in his book advises not to dodge for more than 1 stop for this very reason...
 

DREW WILEY

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All depends. Sometimes I dodge up to 4 stops. You can't make hard rules about any of this because not all papers behave in the same manner. And
certainly not all bleach well.
 

Bob Carnie

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Bit of a ramble here, but I want to put out a few comments about the current state of printmaking and some thoughts.

This post uses digital lanquage but only to to illustrate how both processes are very similar. In my mind the big difference is one process uses super fine pixels and the other uses lumps of grain to create and image.
Something that was a huge discovery for me was the pixels in high end imaging devices are actually smaller than film grain and when made into the print one sees film grain rather than pixels.. this concept for me changed everything.


Soft Light in PS is designed around the concept of local contrast in the mid tone regions.(this is achieved by making any pixel below 50 darker and any pixel above 50 lighter) which when blended in with a brush increases local mid tone contrast. What Tim is doing is creating local contrast in the Shadow Region- He also could do the same thing in the Highlight region by flashing and burn and High filter additional burn ( not to be confused with low filter burn in (which IMO softens and muddy ups the highlights. - for the mid tone regions he would be playing around with his initial contrast ratio of filters.
The use of split filtering techniques, bleaching , flashing are just tools one gathers the more you print- you also need to understand many do not require to add tools and are quite happy with single grade, no bleaching, no flashing, and burning and dodging the hard way.

Darkroom printing IMHO is much more sophisticated than PS in many ways - as we can use many tricks or usage of light that the PS worker would take years to duplicate. I currently print as much digitally as I do analogue and I can say every trick in the darkroom I have tried to duplicate on screen. There is a strong voice on this forum that digital is much easier to control, therefore less valued- I have been working in both arenas for the last 12 years and I can say that both methods are very complex and takes years to master, in fact the simple thing Tim is showing is actually a very defined set of steps in Digital to achieve which take an advanced PS worker to mimic.

One big advantage we have is the use of light, flash, multiple filters, chemical steps, reversal of tones to the point of being specific.

For example I have been doing reversal sabatier / solorization via darkroom for years- for the life of me I cannot reproduce this digitally- we can get close but pixels are on or off. film/paper reacts to light in a much different way and IMO much more creative if understood and manipulated by the printer. I have been asked to solarize some large film that comes out of my Image recorder- I am very interested how the pixel structure will react to a flash of light- I have no idea at this point how it will react.

As you can see , I am of the camp that both processes are very strong and one can learn much from both methods of producing photo prints. I feel I am a much better Analogue printer because of digital concepts, but I can also say I am better at digital as I understand the Analogue methods. ( I grew up with the old methods, but I can say that in the early 80's I could only dream of PS as it is today, there were hints of where we were going and I fully embraced the PS platform.
 

Vaughn

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The way I liked to work (16x20 prints) was to make the base exposure just a little light...then spend the next 5 to 15 minutes burning in (I rarely dodged) to get the image I wanted. I'd use a hole in a black board with a board without a hole to burn in increments of the base time. The base time was usually around 25 seconds, and I might hit the timer another 15 to 30 times before I was done. Repeatable during a single (10 hr) printing session, but I would need to almost start from scratch if I was to reprint an image later.

Sort of a crazy way to work, but it can be intense and fun to work with an image for a long session or two, watching an image change from the always-disappointing straight workprint to a print that brings back the feeling of light that was there.
 

Bob Carnie

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The way I liked to work (16x20 prints) was to make the base exposure just a little light...then spend the next 5 to 15 minutes burning in (I rarely dodged) to get the image I wanted. I'd use a hole in a black board with a board without a hole to burn in increments of the base time. The base time was usually around 25 seconds, and I might hit the timer another 15 to 30 times before I was done. Repeatable during a single (10 hr) printing session, but I would need to almost start from scratch if I was to reprint an image later.

Sort of a crazy way to work, but it can be intense and fun to work with an image for a long session or two, watching an image change from the always-disappointing straight workprint to a print that brings back the feeling of light that was there.

Wow Vaughn- that is definitely not the way I work but I bet it works great in your darkroom, I use dodging as my main tool and burn a lot less. Are you using graded paper or VC?
 

Bob Carnie

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I think I made this decision early as my first 6 years out of photo school was spent printing colour portraits and weddings, where white dress was critical and highlight detail was critical on skin. I found it much easier to dodge back and burn less.

I am also very partial to deeper prints which can influence a starting point.

I remember looking at work in the 80's before good VC paper was available and one of the biggest problems in BW work was poor burn in highlight regions.. basically mush.
It's interesting, perhaps a psychological thing. After initial test strips and contrast decisions, some people might prefer to target a base exposure that gets the highlights right and mostly dodge parts that are too dark, others prefer the opposite - target a base exposure that get the shadows right and burn the rest.

I'm sort of in the middle, and my approach will lean toward either of these depending on the image.
 

David Brown

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This post uses digital lanquage but only to to illustrate how both processes are very similar. ...

Darkroom printing IMHO is much more sophisticated than PS in many ways - as we can use many tricks or usage of light that the PS worker would take years to duplicate. ... There is a strong voice on this forum that digital is much easier to control, therefore less valued- I have been working in both arenas for the last 12 years and I can say that both methods are very complex and takes years to master,

As you can see , I am of the camp that both processes are very strong and one can learn much from both methods of producing photo prints. I feel I am a much better Analogue printer because of digital concepts, but I can also say I am better at digital as I understand the Analogue methods.

Hear! Hear!

Anybody that says making exhibition quality digital prints is easier than in the darkroom, has (IMHO) never made exhibition quality digital prints.
 

Vaughn

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Wow Vaughn- that is definitely not the way I work but I bet it works great in your darkroom, I use dodging as my main tool and burn a lot less. Are you using graded paper or VC?
This was back in the graded paper days -- Ilford Gallery or Portriga Rapid. I tended to see enlarging as chisleing into a hunk of stone. Every strike of the hammer (light hitting the paper) dug deeper into the stone, with the color of the stone getting darker as one chisled away. I felt I was deeply immersed into the image during the printing session, watching it change and grow thoughout the printing session. I would burn in an image, develop and fix it, then study it for 15 to 30 minutes, mentally making changes to the burning pattern -- then back into the dark to make those changes. Then repeat. Generally after 6 or 7 prints I could find and achieve what I wanted, and I would make three final copies.

It is just a way of working that I grew into. Now, I make platinum prints and carbon prints directly from camera negatives -- with no dodging or burning at all. A 180 turn. Basically, I have taken the intensity I experienced during printing, and re-focused it on the taking of the image (and on the refinement of my printing processes.)
 
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