do you tone RC prints?

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 6, 2009

I'll take that to heart. I've always agitated continuously in fixer, bleach, stop bath, and toners, but not in the developer. But when the print stops moving in the developer, which is usually about every 15s or so, I agitate again, so the print is technically moving the whole time.
But lately I've started agitating continuously. Frankly, I'm not sure I can tell a difference from my previous technique in the final results. But I may also not be skilled enough to see the difference.

Thanks, Ralph, for providing such good and accurate advice.

RalphLambrecht said:
AA said: 'The worst thing you can do to a print is not agitate it enough in the developer.' He was right, as almost always.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 6, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I'll take that to heart. I've always agitated continuously in fixer, bleach, stop bath, and toners, but not in the developer. But when the print stops moving in the developer, which is usually about every 15s or so, I agitate again, so the print is technically moving the whole time.
But lately I've started agitating continuously. Frankly, I'm not sure I can tell a difference from my previous technique in the final results. But I may also not be skilled enough to see the difference.

Thanks, Ralph, for providing such good and accurate advice.

Well, maybe having to continuously rock the trays was AA's way to justify a darkroom assistant! Must be nice.

Usagi · Jul 6, 2009

I tone. I use mainly selenium sulphide toner to get better longevity for my prints.
On some RC papers it does not give any noticeable difference, but some papers like Kentmere VC Select get noticeable brownish-magenta tone.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 6, 2009

Usagi said:
I tone. I use mainly selenium sulphide toner to get better longevity for my prints.
On some RC papers it does not give any noticeable difference, but some papers like Kentmere VC Select get noticeable brownish-magenta tone.

Jukka

Are you toning selenium/sulfide as a mixture or is this a sequential toning effort?

Usagi · Jul 6, 2009

RalphLambrecht said:
Jukka

Are you toning selenium/sulfide as a mixture or is this a sequential toning effort?

It's mixture.

BetterSense · Jul 8, 2009

Well, maybe having to continuously rock the trays was AA's way to justify a darkroom assistant! Must be nice.

In the chemistry labs at work they have very mad-scientist looking eccentric platforms that they place petri dishes on to be continuously agitated. I was thinking about making some kind of tray-rocking device for my development trays.

I usually continuously agitate in the developer becaues it gives me something to do, and I think it speeds development, so my prints are probably better-developed for it. I'm not sure if it's the agitation or just the fact that the prints end up better developed. I'm not convinced that agitating film really increases contrast more or it's just because agitation speeds development.

Chuck_P · Jan 9, 2023

Mahler_one said:
Not to throw any nails into the concept of toning, but I believe I might have read on APUG that there is some information that states that Selenium toning does not add any meaningful longevity to a print ( work at RIP? ).

I was searching some information on selenium toning RC paper, and saw this 2009 thread. In my office at work I have a large cork board on the wall adjacent my desk. To it, I have pinned up an 8x10 fiber based print that I printed in 2012 (will be 11 yrs this May), toned in selenium (1+10). That wall gets the afternoon sun......the print has not faded or or otherwise shown any change in color in almost 11 years of afternoon sun exposure. I have to wonder if that would be the case if it were not toned in selenium, maybe just 11 yrs is not long enough.......curious.

Tim Stapp · Jan 9, 2023

Oren Grad said:
In Ctein's tests, Agfa Sistan also showed a protective effect on RC prints.

Didn't Ctein later determine that Agfa Sistan did not provide the protective effect on RC prints? As in, he had to replace a number of prints that silvered out?

MattKing · Jan 9, 2023

To be effective at greatly increasing longevity, selenium toning needs to be done to completion. With many papers, this is accompanied by a significant change in colour of the paper's image tone - not always a desired change. With selenium toning, it can be difficult to gauge whether toning is complete.
The best way to ensure longevity is to ensure complete fixing in fresh fixer, plus thorough washing, aided where appropriate by a wash-aid. Most likely Chuck_P's wall pinned print was well fixed and well washed.
Other types of toning, such as polysulfide and selenium and gold toning are more reliable means of significantly increasing longevity, mainly because it is easier to tell when toning is complete. There are other downsides to those toners.

Sal Santamaura · Jan 9, 2023

Tim Stapp said:
Didn't Ctein later determine that Agfa Sistan did not provide the protective effect on RC prints? As in, he had to replace a number of prints that silvered out?

After replacing a number of deteriorated untreated RC prints he'd sold to clients, Ctein tested things and determined that light selenium toning and/or Sistan treatment provided excellent protection from light-induced bronzing/silvering for those to be framed. I contacted him several decades later and asked how the selenium toned prints were holding up. He replied that they were on his wall looking no different than when he made them. I have no trepidation about framed selenium toned RC prints now. They'll undoubtedly last many years longer than I will.

MattKing · Jan 9, 2023

For those who may have noticed, this thread was formerly in the wrong sub-forum. Thanks for the heads up Sal. It is now where it belongs.

Chuck_P · Jan 9, 2023

MattKing said:
Most likely Chuck_P's wall pinned print was well fixed and well washed.

Washed in the tub with multiple fill and drain cycles......

RalphLambrecht · Jan 9, 2023

jgcull said:
When I use fiber paper I tone it with selenium, but I don't tone rc prints. Should I? I thought because of the coating, toning wouldn't affect the paper but it seems I read somewhere that even rc prints should be toned. Is that so? Do you see a color shift when you tone?

Thanks.

Janet

very little colorshift but good longevity improvement with a short direct polysulfide toner.An Ag guardcan also be used but doesn' replace toner.

AnselMortensen · Jan 9, 2023

My personal experience with toning glossy RC prints:
The toner negatively affected the glossy surface of the prints.
YMMV.

Sirius Glass · Jan 9, 2023

I could. I have some of the toning chemicals, but I have not.

Chuck_P · Jan 9, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
very little colorshift but good longevity improvement

Would mixing selenium to a stronger solution such as 1+ 7 intice more Dmax and a cooler color shift for an RC paper, or would that be a waste of toner.

Chuck_P · Jan 9, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
My personal experience with toning glossy RC prints:
The toner negatively affected the glossy surface of the prints.
YMMV.

Can you elaborate on negatively affected, how?

MattKing · Jan 9, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Would mixing selenium to a stronger solution such as 1+ 7 intice more Dmax and a cooler color shift for an RC paper, or would that be a waste of toner.

It varies from paper to paper.

mshchem · Jan 9, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Would mixing selenium to a stronger solution such as 1+ 7 intice more Dmax and a cooler color shift for an RC paper, or would that be a waste of toner.

I have always used Kodak Rapid Selenium toner at 1+3. This works fine for Ilford RC neutral tone papers. Warmtone papers require much more dilute solutions with any toner. Fomatone papers I use 1+15 .

I tone RC prints mostly for the increase in D max not to change the color. You can go straight from 30 seconds in Ilford film strength rapid fixer, into the toner, I out of habit, dunk the print for a few seconds in a tray of water, then into the 1+3 KRST. If you get any staining on your print this is an indication of inadequate fixing, time for fresh fixer.

mshchem · Jan 9, 2023

MattKing said:
It varies from paper to paper.

Absolutely True. Huge variation.

AnselMortensen · Jan 9, 2023

Chuck_P said:
Can you elaborate on negatively affected, how?

It produced mottled patches where the surface was less glossy.

mshchem · Jan 10, 2023

I get super glossy toned RC prints. The key is an Ilford Ilfospeed dryer, it slightly melts the gelatin allowing it to flow to a high gloss. In fact as Ilford says in the instructions, if the matte or lustre surfaces come out glossy you need to turn the temperature down.
I have been lucky to find a couple of these old dryers, and lucky to be able to keep them going. Alternatives exist new, quite pricey.

koraks · Jan 10, 2023

Chuck_P said:
the print has not faded or or otherwise shown any change in color in almost 11 years of afternoon sun exposure.

Silver prints don't generally fade due to UV light the way pigment and dye prints do. Deterioration is generally of a chemical origin, particularly sulfur compounds, but undoubtedly others as well. And 11 years is indeed not that long for a well-stabilized noble metal to degrade, even if finely distributed.

AS @MattKing said, for toning to really exploit its benefits in terms of permanence, it needs to be done to completion. I know of nobody who selenium tones their prints to completion. You'd really have to like that maroon/brick red hue and be quite patient as well.

Chuck_P · Jan 10, 2023

koraks said:
I know of nobody who selenium tones their prints to completion. You'd really have to like that maroon/brick red hue and be quite patient as well.

Thanks all for your information.

The phrase "toning to completion" with an RC print, do you mean that to be "complete" there needs to be a color shift? And by patient, how long to completion with an RC print?

Sal Santamaura · Jan 10, 2023

Many opinions here about how much selenium toning is necessary to address the main issue with framed RC prints. "To completion" is not the answer. Of issue is light-driven oxidation of the (likely) TiO2 unique to this medium. All evidence suggests it's not a problem for unframed prints stored in boxes in the dark. It's also not an issue for framed, sealed prints that aren't exposed to light, although why one would store prints that way other than as part of an experiment is unclear.

The bronzing/silvering in displayed, framed RC prints can be avoided for at least three decades by treatment with Sistan and/or light selenium toning. I dilute Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+40 and bathe Ilford Multigrade RC Portfolio prints (that were developed in liquid LPD 1+2) for three minutes at 75 degrees F. This dilution/time/temperature combination makes control easy and results in very neutral image tone while affording adequate protection for framing.

By no means can anyone claim that RC prints exhibit the same life expectancy as properly processed and framed fiber based prints. For most people, such performance is not a concern. Rather, the ability to frame and display something that will not deteriorate during one's own lifetime is more important. Given how relatively easy it would be to make and store a second RC print as insurance against the possibility that a framed, displayed version might bronze/silver in four decades (we don't have results for that long), even the lucky few whose own longevity is far above average have nothing to worry about.

I strongly suggest anyone interested in this subject read chapter 12 of Ctein's book:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiTk9aOqr38AhUrKkQIHZ2vBaYQFnoECBYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fctein.com%2FPostExposure2ndIllustrated.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3sM_1w5va5c-WCL8y126LN

do you tone RC prints?

Thomas Bertilsson

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