Do Paterson 35mm reels have a scratching problem?

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

So I was recently given a Paterson tank with two 35mm reels by a forum member here. I had used a Yankee Clipper for many years, and when it finally broke I went to using the Paterson exclusively. Since then I've been noticing a lot of hairline scratches on my negatives. They're very fine (naked eye can't see them on the film) and they go diagonally and horizontally relative to a landscape-oriented frame, never quite vertical. At first I thought it was a problem with my new Zenit, which was one of the first things I developed film from in the new tank. It was the first one where I noticed this pattern of scratching at any rate. Now, however, I've developed film from several cameras and cameras that never scratched my film before are showing the same scratches. I have not changed emulsions (Fuji X-Tra as always) and the cameras do not show any damage that might be scratching the film.

So it's the tank, I have to assume. Am I loading the film with poor technique? Is there something I can do to stop it?

BradS · Apr 28, 2020

I’ve been using several Patterson tanks and reels for over 30 years. Never had scratched negatives.

how would it even be possible? The reels only touch the sprocket area

Ariston · Apr 28, 2020

The reel doesn't touch anything but the sprocket holes when used properly, so I do 't know how it would scratch the image frame.

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

Ariston said:
The reel doesn't touch anything but the sprocket holes when used properly, so I do 't know how it would scratch the image frame.

I don't know either! But it's not the cameras and it's not my handling...

Dali · Apr 28, 2020

Very unlikely it comes from the reel. I use Paterson reels and tanks for the last 40 years. Never had such issue.

MattKing · Apr 28, 2020

Do you bulk load your film?

Willyekerslike · Apr 28, 2020

After forty plus years of use here the answer is no.

However it seems liittle old you have got scratches on your films and have concluded that the only posible cause is a secondhand tank and a couple of secondhand reels.

Do please let us know how you managed it, if you ever find out, if only to help me avoid your technique in my failing years.

Donald Qualls · Apr 28, 2020

If you're using a sponge tong or squeegee on your film when it comes out of the rinse agent, STOP! Also, if you're freeing the film from the reel by cracking it apart, rather than peeling it out with one end already captive in a clip (for hanging to dry), stop that, too. The roughly random scratches you describe are likely due to the edge of the film contacting the surface while the film is wet, which happens when you crack the reel and the film gets randomly coiled before you can pull it out straight.

MattKing · Apr 28, 2020

Are the scratches on the emulsion side?

R.Gould · Apr 28, 2020

I have used Paterson tanks and reels for a very long time and never had a scratching problem, and I can't see how loading a film into the reel could scratch a film, do you pull the film though the cassette or take the to off and losd the film outside the cassette, I have seen scratches from the velvet in the cassette jaw

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
If you're using a sponge tong or squeegee on your film when it comes out of the rinse agent, STOP! Also, if you're freeing the film from the reel by cracking it apart, rather than peeling it out with one end already captive in a clip (for hanging to dry), stop that, too. The roughly random scratches you describe are likely due to the edge of the film contacting the surface while the film is wet, which happens when you crack the reel and the film gets randomly coiled before you can pull it out straight.

I never use tong or squeegee. I rinse color film with the stabilizer and then wash it thoroughly and then finally give it a bath of slightly soapy water, which I was taught runs off the film easier than pure water, then I hang it to dry with no further action.

I tend to hold the protruding end of the film in my hand and drop the reel to the (carpeted) floor, unspooling a 24-shot roll in one smooth motion, so my method is similar to what you're describing. These reels don't break open. By the by, that was the technique I used with my old tank and I never had a problem.

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

R.Gould said:
I have used Paterson tanks and reels for a very long time and never had a scratching problem, and I can't see how loading a film into the reel could scratch a film, do you pull the film though the cassette or take the to off and losd the film outside the cassette, I have seen scratches from the velvet in the cassette jaw

I always remove a lid from the can with a bottle opener and remove the spool with the film on it.

BradS · Apr 28, 2020

Do you load the reels inside a changing bag?

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

MattKing said:
Are the scratches on the emulsion side?

I don't know off-hand. They're light in color. If they were in the emulsion, I would expect them to show up dark when the film is scanned and the colors inverted, correct?

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

BradS said:
Do you load the reels inside a changing bag?

Oh my god, yes, yes I do. That's it.

My bag is full of old opened canisters and stuff. Nope, nope guys, that's totally what it is.

Donald Qualls · Apr 28, 2020

Paterson reels do break open. That's how they adjust for different film sizes (mine will do 135, 127, and 120), as well as come apart for thorough cleaning. I've seen many videos on YouTube of people using this method to get their film out of the reel after processing. There are, however, other brands of plastic reel that will fit in a Paterson tank, and I can't say for certain they do or don't come apart -- I understood most plastic reels do, however, unless they're Jobo.

I have been warned (on the edge of calling me an idiot) not to use dish soap as a wetting agent on film; it "contains other chemicals that are bad for film" and lacks the antifungal and antibacterial components (not that I've ever seen fungus or bacterial growth on C-41 negatives). Apparently, we should only use actual C-41 final rinse.

Donald Qualls · Apr 28, 2020

RLangham said:
My bag is full of old opened canisters and stuff. Nope, nope guys, that's totally what it is.

'Doh! Always keep your work area clean and neat, especially when you can't see it.

BradS · Apr 28, 2020

RLangham said:
Oh my god, yes, yes I do. That's it.

My bag is full of old opened canisters and stuff. Nope, nope guys, that's totally what it is.

Mischief managed!

(its always something. for a while, I had a spell of dropping the negatives on the floor)

MattKing · Apr 28, 2020

RLangham said:
I don't know off-hand. They're light in color. If they were in the emulsion, I would expect them to show up dark when the film is scanned and the colors inverted, correct?

Are you seeing the scratches on the film itself, or just in scans?

RLangham said:
Oh my god, yes, yes I do. That's it.

My bag is full of old opened canisters and stuff. Nope, nope guys, that's totally what it is.

I'm guessing that you meant to use the "sarcasm" emoji with this.
It could still be interaction between how you load the reels and the bag.
What version of Paterson tank and reels? The current version has been around for about 30 years, so if it is a previous version, they are old!

BradS · Apr 28, 2020

One very common and very frustrating issue with Patterson reels, that I think we have all had to deal with at least one is that the reels stubbornly refuse to load film when the reels are even slightly moist. This used to give me fits because I often sweat inside the changing bag. I'll do almost anything to avoid loading reels in the bag now. Usually, I'll wait till after dark and blackout the hallway bathroom.
So, moral of that story is make damn sure the reels are dry (you can also load them very easily with reels and film underwater though)

The other trick that I have learned is to round off the sharp corners on the leading edge of the film before loading. This is especially important when trying to load 36 exposures of 135.

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

MattKing said:
Are you seeing the scratches on the film itself, or just in scans?

I'm guessing that you meant to use the "sarcasm" emoji with this.
It could still be interaction between how you load the reels and the bag.
What version of Paterson tank and reels? The current version has been around for about 30 years, so if it is a previous version, they are old!

No, I'm being sincere!

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

BradS said:
One very common and very frustrating issue with Patterson reels, that I think we have all had to deal with at least one is that the reels stubbornly refuse to load film when the reels are even slightly moist. This used to give me fits because I often sweat inside the changing bag. I'll do almost anything to avoid loading reels in the bag now. Usually, I'll wait till after dark and blackout the hallway bathroom.
So, moral of that story is make damn sure the reels are dry (you can also load them very easily with reels and film underwater though)

The other trick that I have learned is to round off the sharp corners on the leading edge of the film before loading. This is especially important when trying to load 36 exposures of 135.

Yes, I have had bad issues loading 36-shot rolls. It takes so long to get the reels bone-dry...

I will certainly remember to round the corners off when I cut the leader off, though.

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

So I just dumped a ton of cans and can lids out of my bag. I think the problem was letting the film unspool in the bag with this debris, leading to scratches mostly in the non-emulsion side.

Dali · Apr 28, 2020

Why so much stuff in your changing bag?

RLangham · Apr 28, 2020

Dali said:
Why so much stuff in your changing bag?

Because it was a while since I dumped it out. No real mystery, just me being lazy.

Do Paterson 35mm reels have a scratching problem?

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