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Do "off-brand" papers have as much silver?

chip j

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As name-brand papers? I'm thinking of Arista Edu, Silver Eagle, & Slavich. Thanks for any input. Chip
 
Silver content is not as such a quality indicator. But rather a marketing idea.
 
AgX said:
Silver content is not as such a quality indicator. But rather a marketing idea.
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That is what I 've always thought. Providing their is enough silver to be able to create black blacks then thats enough.

Having said that I guess that the amounnt may influence toning considerably but how do we measure it? I doubt you can so its all a bit doubtful as to whether it makes any difference or not.
 
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Interpret the term "silver rich" as a marketing ploy. Marketing weasels have no shame.
 
Weasel. My favorite word. It fits so many uses..... Realtor, lawyer, politician, SLR "Pro" (High Weasel), etc.
 
Perhaps it's better to think of it as marketing shorthand for a chemistry-phobic public. Although no doubt confusing (and marketeers do love profitable confusion ) the term "silver rich" has meaning. The older emulsion recipes, currently being made by a few companies, require more silver than most modern emulsions. Modern emulsions have gotten very good at silver conservation. Think "blueberry-favored bits" instead of expensive blueberries (although it's a fine idea with limited resources like silver!) That extra silver, mostly in the form of relatively insensitive, reflective grains, plus the thicker emulsion coating often required, means that a negative or a piece of paper will look different from modern negatives and paper. It's that beautiful glow that can be heightened when used with older lenses.
 
momus said:
Weasel. My favorite word. It fits so many uses..... Realtor, lawyer, politician, SLR "Pro" (High Weasel), etc.
Click to expand...

Interesting list. Turns out I have a realtor, two lawyers, and a politician in my immediate family. Not a weasel among them.
 
Its not how high the silver content is, its how you use the silver you put in....and how good an emulsion maker and sensitizer you are...

Simon Galley : ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 
Ansel Adams said he couldn't get decent blacks from the "modern" Brovira that he could w/the old. I have no clue what Cykora & Velour Black would have been like!
 
I remember a reprint of an article a long time ago (70s?) The max black plotted against silver content. There was no correlation.
 
The fact that such test was published is interesting, as I do not remember this issue being even discussed back then over here outside the industry.

(But of course it could be a issue of my memory...)
 
I have no idea about silver content, but I've been very happy with the current Arista EDU paper, which is Foma. Prior to that I was equally happy with the Arista EDU "Made in Hungry". which, of course, was the late lamented Forte paper.
 
One manner of conserving silver and still getting a premium look has been the significant improvement made in VC papers over recent
decades. But for certain negatives I certainly do miss the great graded papers of the past which could have been legitimately referred to as
silver rich. I suspect the loss of cadmium in papers also was a factor. I don't know if any premium graded papers are still in production other
than Ilfobrom Galerie. Unfortunately we are suffering a severe drought here, with mandatory water rationing. So my fresh box of Ilfobrom
will have to wait a few more months until the wet season hopefully arrives again. I've got plenty to do in the meantime.
 
IMO Slavich is not off brand! Its russian, but not off brand. repackaging is one thing. But for a manufacturer to make a lower cost product is another.

as an example, adox CHA was a repackaging of efke. same emulsion etc. . . But other companies have asked a manufacturer to make a lower cost paper, that has less. . .. . etc. .. .. It is hard to detect what is rebranded and what is "low brand" as I say. freestyle gets most of their stuff from foma. But is it the same formulation as the Foma sells as is, their Name Brand?
 
I too, miss ALL the options of graded paper. Graded paper for so long was the "professional choice" because it was so much better> I miss emak. and well. . .. so much more.
 
The older emulsion recipes, currently being made by a few companies, require more silver than most modern emulsions. Modern emulsions have gotten very good at silver conservation.
Click to expand...

Older emulsions required more silver to achive the same covering effect of a modern emulsion. From an economic standpoint they are outdated but yet the extra silver does "something". It´s comparable to the discussions among car enthusiasts about ccm (Hubraum) being irreplaceable. A modern car manufacturer will show you test curves and claim that his 1200ccm high rpm engine has the same KW than an old 3000ccm engine but driving the two feels considerably different.
Theres just "something" in an old style emulsion that a modern emulsion won´t give you. You can´t measure it though, especially if you look only at the Dmax.

Mirko
 
I'd agree with that from experience. I work mainly with large format negatives, so can print with a lot of detail. But in certain classic graded papers there was almost another dimension, nearly 3D it seems, an extra degree of microtonality that make you think you were entering into the print and not merely upon it, a certain indefinable richness in addition to the sheer punch of a solid DMax and excellent highlight gradation. Modern VC papers have a different set of advantages, and of course, themselves vary quite a bit.
 
I still print on graded paper. Fomabrom, Galerie, AZO.

Sadly, what was left of my Slavich & Emaks are all gone now.
 
Regardless of silver content, the laws of physics say that a B&W paper print can not get a maximum density higher than about 2.2. This is regardless of silver content.

The thing that influences the look of the print is the tone of the silver image and the shape of the curve as you approach the toe and shoulder. The softer these are, the more fine detail you can see regardless of mid scale contrast. I prefer soft curves or gradual curves in this region of the tone scale of any paper, so as to get more detail in highlights and shadows. You see, it is there in the negative, but the paper cannot reveal it.

You would need very sophisticated split grade printing at both ends of the scale to see this if the effect were not built into the paper.

And this effect is a function of the emulsion, and not the amount of silver present.

Simon says it all in his post, as does Mirko.

PE
 
we all have preferences for sure. IMO graded is better for me. I wish there was more graded out there. Its always so sad to talk about it. ( talk amongst yourselves, I have bit of the verklempt)
 
GKC said:
I still print on graded paper. Fomabrom, Galerie, AZO.

Sadly, what was left of my Slavich & Emaks are all gone now.
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Slavich is still around. I just ordered a large batch of Grades 2 and 3 from BH Photo for contact printing. Enjoy!!
 
Charts & graphs & efficiency have taught me little about the VISUAL ART of photography. The old steelmakers here in Youngstown, many of whom couldn't even write their name, made the BEST steel in the world just by EYEBALLING it, w/o the use of test instruments! GOD!, if there was a high-silver paper these days, who could afford it? Slavich paper is available @ Amazon.
 
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to date: slavich, ilford, foma are the only ones making graded chlorobromide papers. ( discuss)
 
Well, but Lucky still offer graded paper in fibre and RC but I can't speak of their image tone at the moment and there are more brands of unknown manufacture.
 
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