do-it-yourself E6 and C41

[sodarum]

Hi,

I've decided to explore the possibility of developing my own E6 (primarily) and C41 (optionally). I'm reluctant to consider buying an expensive processing machine, but I'd like to know what are the options in that field too. But what I'm mostly interested in is hearing some good suggestions for plain "kitchen sink" processing using a processing tank. When the time comes I'll be sure to read as much as I can about the actual procedures, but I do have a rough idea of what I should expect. For now, I'd like to know how "doable" is it with just a tank, a mixer faucet and a thermometer from the local drug store.

1. The first topic that I'd like to ask some questions is: the tank. I'd like to buy a paterson tank for a single 120 roll or two 135 rolls. Is that a good choice? What about those stainless steal ones they sell at B/H photovideo?

2. Can I really get stable 38 degrees with just a regular mixer (in the middle of the night when nobody runs any water in the house) and a medical thermometer and a lot of testing? What about some kind of darkroom heater instead? I tried to find something like that, but some suggestions for a cheap option would be most appreciated.

3. I see that the Kodak flexicolor kit has so many items in it. How much can I expect the total prices of it all to cost me per roll of 120 film? And does Kodak still offer E6 chemicals at all? I see a lot of it is no longer available for sale in BH photo. By the way, since I live in EU, can someone recommend a good UK alternative to BHphoto video in terms of chemicals and darkroom equipment?

4. What else should I know for starters? Is there some big catch to all of this?

thanks

Edit:

5. Oh yes. If I used a heater, would the distilled water (for ironing) give me a fine alternative to water filtering?

 

[darkroom_rookie]

1. Paterson tank is the real deal. I have two bought brand new and have done several mega-sessions with as much as 18 Velvia/Astia/Provia medium format rolls developed in succession in replenished E6. Perfect results. C41 is easier and more forgiving.

2. I have two titanium fishtank heaters and a submersible pump. The heaters' controllers, originally rated at 34 deg. max. were slightly (and easily) modified and this combo, in a home-made heating tray, gets me exactly 38 deg. C.

3. I use FujiHunt, X-Press for C41 and Chrome6X for E6. Luckily, I can get it locally for a great price, "under the counter".

4. Temperature and patience. Exactness of the former and abundance of the latter.

5. No idea. I use boiled water (sans bottom residue) cooled to 39 deg.C for mixing developers and regular tap water for bleach and fixers - if you're asking about water for chemicals.

 

[Rudeofus]

1. The first topic that I'd like to ask some questions is: the tank. I'd like to buy a paterson tank for a single 120 roll or two 135 rolls. Is that a good choice? What about those stainless steal ones they sell at B/H photovideo?

The two most important things about a tan are that it fits the format you want to use and that you a comfortable with loading film onto the reels in complete darkness.

2. Can I really get stable 38 degrees with just a regular mixer (in the middle of the night when nobody runs any water in the house) and a medical thermometer and a lot of testing? What about some kind of darkroom heater instead? I tried to find something like that, but some suggestions for a cheap option would be most appreciated.

Test strips are extremely sensitive to tiny process variations, but real images often aren't. It's amazing what kind of processing errors one can get away with and still get decent looking slides. Yes, 38.000000°C super accurate water jacket tank system would be nice, but tempering your liquids to 38.5°C and a simple inversion tank will also work.

3. I see that the Kodak flexicolor kit has so many items in it. How much can I expect the total prices of it all to cost me per roll of 120 film? And does Kodak still offer E6 chemicals at all? I see a lot of it is no longer available for sale in BH photo. By the way, since I live in EU, can someone recommend a good UK alternative to BHphoto video in terms of chemicals and darkroom equipment?

Try one of the three bath kits first. Yes, experts will go rah rah rah about BLIX being bad and whatnot, but these kits work well, are easy to use and will give you good results. Once you have become more comfortable with the process, you can start looking for seven bath kits or even self mixing your chemistry from scratch.

4. What else should I know for starters? Is there some big catch to all of this?

If you follow the instructions, you will get good results. If you deviate a bit, you will get slightly worse, but most likely still acceptable results. Don't mix up the sequence of the bathes, and make sure that working solutions are at most two weeks old. FD and CD steps are time sensitive, i.e. you must get the time exactly right, whereas bleach, fixer, BLIX and STAB run to completion, i.e. times given are minimum times.


Good luck!

 

[mauro35]

I only develop black and white film, so I am not the best for answering all your questions, but I can suggest two good stores in UK, that I have used myself sometimes, where you can source the materials you need:

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/
http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/

Hope it helps and good luck!

 

[sodarum]

Thanks for all the answers.

A) Is there such a thing as a cheap immersible heater with a thermostat designed specifically for darkroom work? Something like this fish-tank heater that got mentioned here, except that it's really made for darkroom work (so it doesn't have to be modified to get 38 degrees).

B) So can someone confirm that Kodak no longer offers kit chemicals for E6?

C) I'd probably start with a 3 bath option, but I read somewhere that using BLIX can cause silver retention, how true is that in reality with something like a tetenal kit?

D) One more thing; how many rolls of 120 film could I process with a 1L kit?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I have had good results using a water bath. The setup that I used was a tray ~5 inches deep used in restautants by busboys to break down tables. A replacement plastic circulation pump from a humidifier with a Variac to control the motor speed is a handy addition. Temperature was controlled by adding hot water as needed. I used a SS tank since metal responds faster to temperature changes than plastic. In addition plastic tanks and reels are harder to keep clean.

E-6 processing is less forgiving than C-41 so I would recommend starting with it. All my solutions were made from scratch. There is no real economy if you have to purchase a kit. You must follow directions carefully and have a good thermometer and timer. Fortunately only time/temperature in the developers are critical. Still it's a lot of work when you figure the total amount of time.

 

[sodarum]

Ok, here is the first sketch of my plan:

- get this: http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/4309/paterson-film-developing-kit (the alternative is to get a larger tank to hold 2 or 3 120 rolls, but they don't sell it in a cheap kit like this)

- get this: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/novatronic-heaterthermostat-2545-p.asp (I think it solves all the problems with temperature, and I can use distilled water for washes)

and

- get this: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-e6-kit-5l-684-p.asp

or this (in case I want to go with a 6 bath version):

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-chrome6-e6-kit-5l-1758-p.asp

Can someone comment on this? Does this seem like a good start? Did I forget about something?

thanks

 

[Athiril]

If you sit them in bottles immersed in hot water they'll warm up. Cheap heaters exist but generally not designed to go up to 38C as you don't normally run an aquarium at that. Heater is not really needed.

What I did was pre-wash with 42-44c water and agigtatw and read temp. Add more water if the temp is not at 38 in the tank.

I'd heat up my chemistry hotter than needed and pour some cool developer in it till it reached 38 and was ready to go.

Once you do first dev (38c, 6 min) and first wash/soak (38c, 2 min) right and get into either a stop bath or reversal after that it doesnt have to be precise and you can let it sit and take your time between steps I find.

 

[sodarum]

I know it can be done without a heater, but since I've never done this before, I thought It would simplify things for me. But considering the cost of the heater, I'll consider doing it this way instead.
The only problem I really have with doing it without a heater, is that, once you mix it to 38 C, it starts to cool down. With a heater I could simply put all the vessels (including the tank) immersed in a water bath without the need to constantly re-check the temperature of the water bath.

I'm tempted to go for the Fuji 6-bath system. As far as I can tell it's pretty much the same type of work, only with more steps. If I can correctly time a 3 bath, I guess I could do it with 6 too.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Ok, here is the first sketch of my plan:

- get this: http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/4309/paterson-film-developing-kit (the alternative is to get a larger tank to hold 2 or 3 120 rolls, but they don't sell it in a cheap kit like this)

- get this: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/novatronic-heaterthermostat-2545-p.asp (I think it solves all the problems with temperature, and I can use distilled water for washes)

and

- get this: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-e6-kit-5l-684-p.asp

or this (in case I want to go with a 6 bath version):

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-chrome6-e6-kit-5l-1758-p.asp

Can someone comment on this? Does this seem like a good start? Did I forget about something?

thanks

I have a Novatronic heater and added a fish tank submersible pump to keep the water in the water bath (sink) constant.
I just scoop up some water from the water bath to wash the film.A plastic bucket collects the waste water.

 

[sodarum]

Another quick question: if the temperature gets too low, is the effect roughly the same as a shorter development? (sort of like pulling the film)?

 

[Rudeofus]

I've done some (there was a url link here which no longer exists) a while back, and the temperature drop in a regular dev tank is not that bad for dev times up to ten minutes. Trust me you will get some results without a separate heater system.

E6 is a complex process with many steps and variables, and I would highly recommend that you avoid extra complexity if you start this from scratch. Start with the simplest possible setup, and add machinery and other improvements as you go.

 

[EdSawyer]

C41 home processing cost for me, for 120 is about 50c a roll or less, and that is using everything one shot except blix.

 

[Roger Cole]

The two most important things about a tan are that it fits the format you want to use and that you a comfortable with loading film onto the reels in complete darkness.


Test strips are extremely sensitive to tiny process variations, but real images often aren't. It's amazing what kind of processing errors one can get away with and still get decent looking slides. Yes, 38.000000°C super accurate water jacket tank system would be nice, but tempering your liquids to 38.5°C and a simple inversion tank will also work.


Try one of the three bath kits first. Yes, experts will go rah rah rah about BLIX being bad and whatnot, but these kits work well, are easy to use and will give you good results. Once you have become more comfortable with the process, you can start looking for seven bath kits or even self mixing your chemistry from scratch.


If you follow the instructions, you will get good results. If you deviate a bit, you will get slightly worse, but most likely still acceptable results. Don't mix up the sequence of the bathes, and make sure that working solutions are at most two weeks old. FD and CD steps are time sensitive, i.e. you must get the time exactly right, whereas bleach, fixer, BLIX and STAB run to completion, i.e. times given are minimum times.


Good luck!

I agree about three bath E6. Blix is fine - oh, you can get more capacity and the solutions last longer with separate bleach and fix but don't over use the blix and it's fine. The lack of stabilizer is a different question but there's a thread on here about that somewhere giving, from P.E., instructions on making your own from pretty readily available formalin. That's what I'll do when I start doing E6 again. I used to use the three bath with no issues at all.

Water jacket is fine. I didn't even have an aquarium heater or the like, just a big pan of water at "about" the right temperature, and I'd put my solutions into aluminum drink cans (well labeled and temporarily) because of the good heat transfer, stick a thermometer in the solution and run hot or cold water over the can as needed until I got the solution right, then into the "tempered to somewhere around the right temperature" tank and develop away. Only the first developer is critical anyway and it's not that critical for real world photos as reading some of these threads would lead you to believe.

 

[sodarum]

I read somewhere that Tetenal confirmed (to a customer inquiry) at some point that their kit is tweaked to get a slightly higher contrast than with Kodak E6 kit. Anyone noticed this in their own work?

 

[paulferris1964]

Ok, here is the first sketch of my plan:


- get this: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/novatronic-heaterthermostat-2545-p.asp (I think it solves all the problems with temperature, and I can use distilled water for washes)

and

For C41, I've recently bought a cheap 'sous vide' from Ebay (see below). Designed for precise water bath cooking, it's perfect for keeping chemical temps exactly where you want them. The rack it comes with is no good for sitting bottles on, but solved that by buying a small piece of perforated zinc sheet, and bending the ends over so it stands proud of the bottom. Highly recommended. Not the cheapest solution, but everything you need is there and saves alot of hassle.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VonShef-P...=UK_HGKitchen_SmallApp_RL&hash=item51bf036175

Paul

 

[pbromaghin]

I use a Phototherm Model 14 tempering bath. They aren't made any more but you can find them from time to time. It works great.

http://www.phototherm.com/bath.html

 

[sodarum]

Here's another question related to E6 processing:

is there a way to play with adjacency effects in E6 development? As far as I could see from some examples posted on the internet, insufficient agitation leads to uneven development across the image, rather than creating adjacency effects, when using a tank.

 

[PtJudeRI]

Don't get out of control with the water temp. As long as you are +/- 2 degrees or so you won't have a problem. I have a large plastic storage bin that I use as a water bath. I have the tetenal E6 kit, and have been getting great results. I make sure my 1st and color dev. are at 100 deg. f, but after that, I just use it as it is. The Blix is less temperature sensitive, and if you are down in the mid 90's it won't affect anything. I use the plastic tub and fill it with the hottest water I can get to heat my bottles up, then I just add some hot water to maintain the temp here and there as needed. cost? A storage bin and a thermometer. My FLICKR page has a bunch of home developed velvia examples on it. Take a peek!!

 

[Roger Cole]

Don't get out of control with the water temp. As long as you are +/- 2 degrees or so you won't have a problem. I have a large plastic storage bin that I use as a water bath. I have the tetenal E6 kit, and have been getting great results. I make sure my 1st and color dev. are at 100 deg. f, but after that, I just use it as it is. The Blix is less temperature sensitive, and if you are down in the mid 90's it won't affect anything. I use the plastic tub and fill it with the hottest water I can get to heat my bottles up, then I just add some hot water to maintain the temp here and there as needed. cost? A storage bin and a thermometer. My FLICKR page has a bunch of home developed velvia examples on it. Take a peek!!

My experience in past days too. It's not nearly as critical as they say. It is in the sense of "you can see the difference if you use control strips" but for practical pictorial purposes for most of us, it's easy to get "close enough."

 

[Photo Engineer]

Here's another question related to E6 processing:

is there a way to play with adjacency effects in E6 development? As far as I could see from some examples posted on the internet, insufficient agitation leads to uneven development across the image, rather than creating adjacency effects, when using a tank.

Yes, you can play with adjacency effects but the best results come from changes in the first developer. There is little to some taking place in the CD if you vary conditions.

PE

 

[sodarum]

Hi Ron, thanks

Could you elaborate on that please? What could I do to increase adjacency effects in the 1st developer step? Just decrease agitation, or is there another way too?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Agitation in the FD comes to mind first but going up is more effective. Going down is risky. A good prewet is indicated for using lower agitation or you risk streaking as noted above. I suggest playing to get to the point you like.

Getting these changes is a risky limited process in the E6 system due to the nature of the film and process. And remember that the effects are reversal, that is, they go the opposite way you expect if you are a C41 processor.

PE

 

[sodarum]

what do you mean by "going up" and "going down"? You mean increasing and decreasing agitation?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sorry, going up and down refer to absolute agitation.

PE