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Do Ilford below-the-lens filters degrade over time?

Brian Stater

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Hello Everyone

I have recently returned to using a set of Ilford Multigrade filters that I bought in the mid-1990s. I am not getting the results I expected, finding myself printing at 0 or even 00 when I would have expected 2 or 2.5

Which makes me wonder....is it me that's degrading?.....or do these filters deteriorate over such a length of time?

As ever, all thoughts, info or advice would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Brian
 

peoplemerge

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I'm also using the Ilford multigrade filters I bought in the mid-1990s.
1. Maybe you've used them more than me, but to state the obvious, I would look first at the paper and chemistry freshness.
2. Are you printing a neg you printed yesteryear and you've got a different result using "same" (ie fresh) paper and same chems?
3. Are we talking dektol?
4. I don't know if it makes a difference, but when was the last time you changed the bulb in your condenser? (this seems unlikely)
 

Hilo

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They certainly do! How much depends where they were kept. Kind off in light, or in the dark. Just get new ones.
 

Ian Grant

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Yes, and Ilford warn that they do. My experience is the below lens sets last a lot longer, the filter drawer type seem to fade quicker because they are stored between paper/card, and that contain moisture.

Ian
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Some claim they do. I have never seen it - though I once did convince myself my set had gone south, bought a new set, and then found swapping filters between the sets made no difference to the prints.

YMWV
 

Pieter12

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I dunno. I can't imagine a 00 filter fading to the point where it produces a #2 grade, it is already lighter and has less magenta.


I would suspect something else in your system, maybe the enlarger lamp has changed temperature?
 

AgX

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Andrew O'Neill

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If you use them, they will degrade over time. Obviously that depends on how much/often you use them. Most of the Ilford filters I have at the school I teach have faded so much so that they are useless. Luckily I have the larger sheets, that I can cut out.
 

Roger Cole

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The above lens ones certainly do. I had some from the 90s, got back into photography in 2010-11 or so, and had to get new filters. The old ones were basically worthless.

Getting back into it again now after another ten years or so away and might buy yet another set, though I also just bought a new-to-me enlarger with both VCCE and color dichro heads so that depends on whether I also want to be able to use the old D2V.
 

Pieter12

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Do they fade from exposure to light or other reasons like age? I only use the 00 and 5 filters, the rest are tucked away in a drawer.
 

Roger Cole

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My above lens ones faded just sitting in the packages between cardboard for some 10-15 years, in a dark basement. It was admittedly often damp too but the point is, I was NOT using them and they were not exposed to light at all.
 

pentaxuser

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Do they fade from exposure to light or other reasons like age? I only use the 00 and 5 filters, the rest are tucked away in a drawer.

I went to the trouble to ask Ilford and Ilford's answer was NO. Age by itself was not a factor. If the filters in their holder and box are covered by the lid and just left they do not fade

I hope this helps

pentaxuser
 

DREW WILEY

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Of course they fade. Ilford's answer is guardedly ambiguous. TIme itself in some theoretical sense might not be a factor, but in any practical sense, time is accompanied by repeated usage, issues with heat and UV, possibly mold and mildew, handling issues - various real-world variables. If you can find a late edition of Kodak's classic Wratten filter handook, they actually give fade rating for every single one of their own filters under three distinct categories of stress, whether by light or in storage. Less than ideal storage, too hot or humid, something will give out, just like any other dyed material. I don't know in what universe Ilford found an exemption to that.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Everything degrades over time. 30 years is a long time.Yes.they do degrade and You may need a new set.
 

pentaxuser

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Drew, if someone had asked you, as a customer service advisor for Ilford, for an answer to this question from someone who possessed a set of under-the-lens filters and who said: "I bought a set of these filters 4 years ago but never had the need to use them. I now would like to use them so have they deteriorated due to age alone? I kept these in a cupboard in the darkroom which is not subject to extreme temperatures"

How would you respond to that person who is looking for help and advice as to what he should do ?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

DREW WILEY

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I would, first of all, respond as honestly as I could, regardless of whether it made a particular product look good or not so good. Second, if I wasn't fully informed on the specifics, I'd ask someone in the company who was before responding. Unfortunately, in most corporate settings, customers service reps are under pressure to hurry things along, and often are at the low end of the totem pole when it comes to actual experience. But among the numerous overlapping layers of career I myself held for quite awhile, I did serve people with technical advice as well as specific products which were mainly chosen by myself too, as one of the key buyers for that company. Holding the purse strings, we had a "zero BS" policy. Any sales representative approaching us with a product line was given one warning and then the boot if they didn't do their homework first. But instead, when it was me needing to directly reach out to any given manufacturer for the truth, it could take a lot of work getting past all the marketing types to someone in a true industrial position who might actually be in the know, like a key engineer or chemist. And if competent honest individuals just weren't there, and securely there as permanent staff, well, then that company was just plain scratched off the list.

I'm not suggesting that the person at Ilford was being dishonest. Ilford is a class act, but relatively small and perhaps understaffed. But they were serving up a quickie answer based on certain assumptions which overlook a number of real-world variables. Maybe older filter inventory on their own shelves still looked fine; who knows? Over the years, I've learned to test every product for myself to learn the truth; but I was not only paid to do that, but was outright given all kinds of things by manufacturers, even prototypes, to test, and at one point, even had enough personal energy left over to publish comparison results in relevant trade magazines. None of that was photo related, but was analogous in approach. The photo magazines didn't pay enough to make it worth my time. But the amount of BS out there is amazing large either way.

Just like there are a lot of web jockeys these days, back then there were pro writers who had to do several feature articles a month to make a living. Where did they have the time to seriously research or test anything? They didn't. Consumer Reports was one of the worst. That's why forums like this one where people can get real world feedback from one another are important. Sure, a lot still has to be sifted and sorted out; but it's way better than a corporate snow job.

In this overall thread, one can easily discern a serious manufacturer like Cree due to the quality and detail of their specification pages. It's not like walking into Home Depot or Wal Mart and seeing some too good to be true color quality rating on the package of some dirt cheap import LED or CFL residential bulb. GE has pretty much gotten out of lighting by now; but when they were a major player there were two distinction divisions. The Pro Lighting division offered plenty of specs like real spectrograms for these high quality products, with no BS, while the Consumer Lighting division had nothing but BS and mainly junk bulbs - even their trade show salesmen were habitual liars. After awhile, one can almost smell the difference.
 
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Ian Grant

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My above lens ones faded just sitting in the packages between cardboard for some 10-15 years, in a dark basement. It was admittedly often damp too but the point is, I was NOT using them and they were not exposed to light at all.

Mine faded patchily because the dyes in the gelatine layer leached into the card holder, however I hadn't used them for maybe 23 years, these were the filter drawer type. I'd switched to using an enlarger with a colour My below lens sets are fine, but only get rare use as I've been using a 10x8 enlarger with a colour head since abput 2004.

It's worth noting that since the introduction of Ilfospeed Multigrade Ilford have changed the spectral sensitivity of first the 2, and later the 3, the emulsions mixed to coat Mutigrade paper and Ilford also changed the filters. The latest Multigrade V paper is in fact the 9th or 10th version of Multigrade since 1940, if you don't count Warmtone or Cooltone.

Ian
 

Roger Cole

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It was probably the cardboard holders. ISTR some discoloration of them, and where else could it have come from?

I've always avoided below the lens filters. Above the lens they are so out of focus that, to quote a magazine article I read about such years ago, "they can be as scratched, dirty, and crummy as you like." That may be overstating it but the point is valid.

The actual spectral sensitivity of each layer may have changed but have the actual filters? Depending on how they interact that may be a different question, and I don't know.
 

DREW WILEY

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High quality MC glass filters work just fine below the lens, just like they do over a camera lens. So called VC printing filters are generally thin polyester, so will degrade the image anywhere below the negative itself. It's just soooo much easier to use a colorhead or learn split printing, which requires only two filters.