do I REALLY need selenium???

I print only for own enjoyment. I hang my prints in my house. Should I use the selenium step for archival purposes? From what info I've gathered, this step is used when prints are stored under adverse conditions or they are displayed under bright lights. Do I need to worry about my prints deteriorating? Should I use this step?
I'm using Oriental FB, Photographers' Formulary BW-65, and Photographers' Formulary TF-4 fixer.

I'm trying to use the LEAST amount of chemicals possible. Thanks, I appreciate everyones input!

Al D'Addario Wakefield, MA.

hi al

i've never used the stuff. been printing since the 80s, and submitting to archives since the 90s ... never had problems or the need ... but a lot of people swear by its use. i, like you, want to have as few chemicals lying around as possible, not to mention, selenium isn't the easiest thing to dispose of.

For me one of the side benefits to selenium is the archival life of the print. My first use is always the range of contrast it brings with its use. I don't think it is possible to bring out blacks as easily in a print without this toner. The deep blacks in shadow areas or tinge of color in an untoned print (depending on the paper) don't look right to me any more without it. Give it a try and see how you like it. Nothing lost to try.

Disposal is another issue. I don't dump this stuff down the drain (or spent fixer for that matter). It is stored in jugs and disposed of at the city recycling center once or twice a year. It will not do anything good for water quality if it is poured into a drain in a city system. tim

I don't think you _need_ it although I do like how it tones with certain papers.
Also peace of mind is a good thing to have. I'd say try it, it's a pretty economical toner (not cheap at first but once you dilute it and see how many prints you can push through it, it's not bad..)

Selenium really deepens blacks thereby increasing the tonal range. Here is a simple experiment... Print and wash your pictures as you usually do. Keep 2 (of the same image) of them wet. Take one through a 2nd pure hypo fixing bath; make sure you keep the other in a tray of water next to the tray where you mixed the selenium toner with perma wash. When you've fixed the one print for 3 minutes, take it out and place it in the toner and keep agitating it. Keep watching the tone change and compare it to the untoned print in the water. After about 4-5 minutes you will see a major difference (improvement) over the control print. In fact, the control print will appear to be green when compared to the toned print. If you don't want to get hooked on toning, don't try it. I promise you that once you see one of your prints toned, you will never consider a print complete until it is toned.

I only use it for aesthetic reasons - colour shift or dmax deepening, it really does make a difference

You can get similar archival benefits by toning in Sepia toner, or a few other toners. (Caution is advised, as some toners are definately harmful to making archival prints. Copper toner, for example.)

Whether or not you tone at all, especially if you're printing for your own enjoyment, is strictly up to you and should really be based on aesthetic considerations. If you don't require the look of Selenium, then don't bother. If the prints are hanging on your walls, you can always make more prints later if you have some paper around.

Personally I'm partial to warmtone prints for a lot of my work, so I use Kodak brown toner. It is an archival toner, but it definately turns prints brown...not everyone's taste. Like you, I print for my own enjoyment, although I give away lots of prints and try to treat them archivally for that reason.

The prints which I do in neutral tone look, to my eyes, better after a short bath in dilute Selenium toner. But if reducing the number of chemicals in my process was important to me and I was hanging all of the prints on my own walls, then I'd probably skip the Selenium step.

So skip away...as long as you're washing your prints properly you'll be fine. If you want an extra step to help with archival stability without changing your image tone, use Sistan. But it is another step.

Best of luck.
Dave

DONT DO IT. I did it and now have Tim Rudmans book on toning. Toning opens up a whole new world of results that you can get with your prints. You start looking at older stuff you did and think how much better it would look if you had toned it. When I selenium tone Azo I reduce exposure 15% as you would for dry down. Different papers will give different color. Azo #2 will give the normal selenium color but #3 will be a lot more red. I'm getting the excitement with toning that I got when I first saw an image come up in the developer. Same addiction, new fix. John

I normally do not use it for archival reasons. I normally use a 2 fix bath for my prints. Should be good for a very long time.

All great advice.

A couple of points. If you use it you can cut some plexiglas 1/8 inch and make covers for your trays. That way there is very little smell.

It is also very inexpensive if you mix some say, 1/9 and some 1/4 and keep re-using it. Just make sure if you use a washing agent that you rinse it for a few minutes in water before putting it in the selenium. The washing agent will make the selenium rather impotent in a short time, in my experience.



Michael

There is no need to worry about needing to concern yourself with selenium until you are sure that your prints have been propery fixed..there is no problem with messing up the fixing step with any fixer. All of them are are also, when properly used, capable of doing a more than adequate job. Toning in either selenium or sulfur will give your a variety of print colors and and depth. Both are capable of extending the life od the print. You would do yourself a favor by using fiber paper as it is tried and true in its having earned a reputattion for a long life. RC prints a more uncertain in archival quality. Having properly fixed and toned the print, be sure to use good technique in washing your prints so that all of the investment in the print is not wasted. Photographer's Formulary have reagents for testing fixing and washing and it is worthwhile to employ them.

Hi Al,

This is one of those cases where the only way you'll ever really know the answer is to do the side by side test, otherwise you'll always be haunted by doubts. You must be haunted by them already as this is only your SECOND POST SINCE APRIL??!!

Because you use TF-4 it'll be easy as selenium toner requires an alkaline environment to work, so after the second TF-4 bath your prints can go straight into the selenium toner. This lets you see the results in under 10 minutes...ish...(3 min dev, 30 sec water stop, 1 min TF-4, 1 min TF-4, 3 min sel tone...approx). With an acid first fix you then have to rinse for quite a while, then fix again in a plain hypo bath before you can tone and see the results. Some people, however, have a problem with this sequence...

I don't have a recommended dilution for your paper as I use Multigrade IVFB which needs a pretty strong 1:10 dilution, in my case anyways. I think somebody already mentioned reducing your final print exposure "a tad", then selenium toning for a good strong black. This is what I do as well, as I feel it opens the shadows as compared to when you selenium tone a fully exposed print.

There is no black & white answer to this one...the only way to know for sure, is to find out if it works for you and your images

Murray

The archival print is the very last step in the insanely expensive photogaphy process. When you consider how many truly meaningful prints you will be honored to produce in your photographic lifetime, any step that will help to preserve your photo legacy for your grandchildren and beyond is hardly a minor consideration.

I find the very subtle color shift imparted by selenium to be a move toward classic look. The archival considerations are, for me, frosting on the cake. IMHO, selenium is the dot on the i or the crossing of the t. It is the stamp of approval for a print that I consider to be a keeper.

From what I've read, the more recent sources (such as Rudman's book on toning) indicate the archival benefits of selenium are only derived by fully toning the print. I mostly use warmtone papers and I'm not really fond of the selenium color shift (brown either) that comes with full toning. I do like the way selenium toner adds a little depth to the print and I do like the way it removes the olive tint from some papers.

I use selenium on just about everything but I don't think I'm getting much benefit from it's archival properties. Nelson Gold is the only toner with archival properties that I've ever used that has a look I really like. But I don't like the process required to use it.

I don't think you absolutely "need" to use a toner. If you like the way the paper looks without toner and you want to make the print more archival, you might try Agfa Sistan. It's used as a final step after washing and it's supposed to be an archival treatment. Of course, with Agfa going away this may no longer be an alternative.

Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't. I use it if I want the tonal change, or if I need deeper blacks.

And sometimes I use old Viradon too, but only in warm weather when I can work outdoors.

Al D'Addario said:

Should I use the selenium step for archival purposes?

Click to expand...

From reading of work done by the IPI, Image Permanence
Institute, selenium is not very effective for archival purposes.
That is from studies of microfilm which I understand to have
an emulsion similar to print paper. Previous studies did not
take into account minute amounts of sulfur included
with the toner.

To cut to the quick, very good results can be had by
treating in a 1:9,999 dilution of sodium sulfide. The IPI
would do us a favor by testing a few print papers. Dan

Archival properties depend on the extent of toning but aside from that I think toning does wonders for the image quality of a print. When looking at toned and untoned versions of a print I almost always find that the untoned version lacks a sense of depth and usually pales by comparison. Specifically I prefer to selenium tone only the shadow portions since I usually don't prefer the look of a print that has been toned to completion in only one toner. It just looks too overdone and seems to lose the nice tonal seperation of a split-toned print. Instead I will let the highlights go unchanged and often tone them in sepia. The sense of depth and richness is great and I also have a print that is better protected than one that was only limitedly toned in selenium to provide an increase in D-Max. Its a little more work to use this method but bewarned that once you do it its unlikely that you will ever prefer an untoned image again! lol