Do I need Perma Wash?

Hi,

I'm pretty new to processing B & W film at home. I'm using Ilfosol3 and Ilford Rapid Fixer because that's what the guy at the store suggested. He also sold me some Heico Perma Wash. The Perma Wash seemed like a good idea because I need to use as little water as possible, but now I'm not sure I need it with the Ilford fixer.

What do you think? Do I need the Perma Wash? What's the best water-conserving method to wash the film after fixing?

Thanks,

Adam

For ultimate water conservation, use the Ilford washing technique described on page 5 of this document: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006216115141521.pdf
You can skip the Perma Wash if you do the Ilford method, but you must use the Rapid Fix if you're going to do it and fix for NO MORE than absolutely needed. IE: test the clearing time for the film you are using and double the clearing time. For some films this may mean a fixing time as short as 60 seconds - maybe less!

A washing aid like Perma Wash is helpful for FB paper but is not needed for film or RC paper.

Ilford's film data sheets include instructions for a water-saving wash method. I trust Simon Galley won't mind if I copy it here:

WASH

When a non-hardening fixer has been used wash the films in running water for 5–10 minutes at a temperature within 5ºC (9ºF) of the process temperature.

For spiral tank use, when a non-hardening fixer has been used, the following method of washing is recommended. This method of washing is faster, uses less water yet still gives negatives suitable for long term storage.

After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/– 5ºC (9ºF), as the processing solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once more drain the water away and refill. Finally, invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.

paulbarden said:

...and fix for NO MORE than absolutely needed. IE: test the clearing time for the film you are using and double the clearing time. For some films this may mean a fixing time as short as 60 seconds - maybe less!

Click to expand...

I don't know what this means. what's clearing time and how do I test for it? (As I said, I'm new at this.)

To test for clearing time:

1) take a scrap of undeveloped film (a piece of 35mm leader is fine). I like to use TMax 400, because it takes the longest time to fix of all the common films;
2) put a small drop of the fixer you are testing on it. After a minute or so, the spot where the fixer was should be almost or entirely clear;
3) put the scrap of film with the clear spot into a graduate or other container with some more of the fixer - make sure there is enough to immerse the scrap completely, with some to spare;
4) start your timer;
5) agitate the scrap of film at least as much as you agitate your film while you are fixing it;
6) the clearing time will be reached when the scrap of film is now clear all over, and you cannot easily see where the spot was - stop the timer, and whatever it reads is your clearing time.

You can do the test while your film is being fixed. Once you reach the clearing time, you then know to double or triple it in order to achieve your target total fixing time.

On the main subject of the thread: I am in favour of wash aids, especially for those who need to conserve water. They do shorten wash times.

The Ilford method needs to be done correctly and carefully or it won't do the complete job. If you use Perma Wash (or Kodak HCA, or Ilford Washaid) after a one minute, low flow rinse, and before using the Ilford washing method described, you can be much more confident about the effectiveness of the wash.

In my case, I do a 1 minute, low flow rinse, an HCA treatment, and a 5 minute low flow rinse.

Adam W said:

Hi,

I'm pretty new to processing B & W film at home. I'm using Ilfosol3 and Ilford Rapid Fixer because that's what the guy at the store suggested. He also sold me some Heico Perma Wash. The Perma Wash seemed like a good idea because I need to use as little water as possible, but now I'm not sure I need it with the Ilford fixer.

What do you think? Do I need the Perma Wash? What's the best water-conserving method to wash the film after fixing?

Thanks,

Adam

Click to expand...

Perma Wash is a wash aid and they are shighly suggested prior to washing fiber-based prints, since they aid the removal of fixer residue.However, they are not considered necessary for film or RC-based prints, because ,with these materials there are no fibers for the fixer to 'hang on' to.That said.it can even hurt with film and RC because a minute amount of residual fixer actually increases longevity.To control this amunt is very difficult and hence some kind of a washing aid is usually recommended.Thereare several prduct choices available. the simplest is a 2% solution of sodium sulfite,which you can easily mix yourselffrom bulk chemicals

Hypo eliminator was considered snake oil although it was known about in 19 century until post WWII when the western navy's archived their negatives.

The negs from the austerity ASW corvettes were all perfect the ones from larger vessels with desalination plants less so.

The Corvettes only had a bottle of water for a final rinse they used running sea water faucet for long soak.

Developers are all the same much more critical is fresh fix and fresh hypo eliminator for neg life.

Beware of snake oil sellers talking about developers.

After three minutes in even plain sodium thio it is safe to open tank and lift out spiral if the film looks milky put it back repeat every minute until it does not look milky this is the clearing time fix for twice this time.

Fixing is temperature dependent like developers as well as film type dependent and fixer exhaustion dependent.

If you get strange shadows from sprocket holes this is not bromide drag but gross under fixing.

Snake oil again...

Sea water makes good hypo eliminator...

I've always used Perma Wash, since the 80s. It's so cheap for a big bottle that lasts pretty much forever. Not a big risk, and I've never had issues... So I'll probably keep using it.

i have used perm wash like double negative, since the 1980s for films, rc prints and fiber prints, and never had issue.
(its not snake oil, but a sulfite based chemical that mimics the effect of sea water that Xmas spoke about ...
it pulls non-clinging fixer off of the print and encapsulates it (oversimplification, i know ..
using it will reduce your wash time / the amount of water you use to wash your film and prints ... make sure you use NON HARDENING FIXER )

i tend to wash for 2x ( sometimes more ) of what the time says on the bottle for "archival" films and prints ...
while the fill and shake method works great, i tend to do long soaks and let the fixer diffuse out of the paper and films.
then i dump the water and fill again ... most of the time at least 20 fill-n-dumps ...

for lots of films i have and use film and print washers ..

After fixing with Ilford Rapid Fix, I do one quick rinse with water, then two minutes in Dead Link Removed, followed by the Ilford Archival Wash Method. This may be overkill, but one thing the wash aid does wonderfully is release the pink dye from the TMAX film base. Without it, I always seem to have that pink stain on the film.

I keep small dropper bottles filled with wash aid and photo flo. You only need two droppers of the wash aid to clear two rolls of 120 film.

I also use Perma wash. After fixing I give a few fills and dumps of the tank, then 2 minutes in Perma wash followed by 8 minutes wash.

Thanks for all the replies, folks.

I've been using Permwash for film since the mid-1970s and those negs, stored in Neg files, are still fine. I started using it to cut wash times - newspaper work - and now use it to save water. Never tried it with RC prints; don't use fiber paper. I stick with it because it seems to work for me.