Do film grains get messed up by too much exposure to x-ray?

[Andrew O'Neill]

I was wondering if PE or anyone here could shed some light on this. Is this true? Does film's exposure to x-ray mess up its grain structure? This is what Salgado thinks and why he went to digital:

" after 9/11 it became impossible to talk the authorities into letting him take his cases, containing hundreds of rolls of film, through without being x-rayed. The signs say the machines do not affect film, but they do and if, like Salgado, you pass through six or seven airports on a trip, the effect is catastrophic — “The grain,” he says, “loses its structure.”

I've had my film x-rayed 6 times going through airports (including Heathrow). All of it carry on, of course, and I've only seen a faint increase in base fog. That's it. Still very printable images. Messed up grain structure? Nope.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You are closer to the truth than Salgado!

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

The truth be known Salgado is the one that was messed up by x-rays.

 

[RobC]

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/faqentries.asp?n=15&t=Airport+Security

 

[Sirius Glass]

Check these out"

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Transportation/xrays_airport.htm
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Transportation/xrays_damage.htm
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/cis98/cis98.pdf
​

 

[Photo Engineer]

What I said in post #2.

PE

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Fog. That's it. Just fog. Nothing to do with grain structure. I thought that what Salgado said was a tad on the bizarre side. I think he switched to digital because of it's convenience and cost savings.

 

[Sirius Glass]

One can get wavy lines too.

 

[M Carter]

I recall some anecdotal stuff about third world countries using some brutal x-ray gear; and I understand that checked baggage can get a much higher dose in modern airports. The Ilford link just mentions checked baggage x-rays, not carry on.

Maybe, if one is traveling to a "first world" country to do extensive B&W shooting, it could be wise to bring a tank and some sleeves and clips, find some chemistry, and spend your last day processing film in your hotel? If you're that worried anyway...

 

[RattyMouse]

Who is Salgado and is he embarrassed to be so utterly wrong about film?

 

[bdial]

Who is Salgado and is he embarrassed to be so utterly wrong about film?

http://theartofphotography.tv/photographers/salgado/

 

[Ian Grant]

I recall some anecdotal stuff about third world countries using some brutal x-ray gear; and I understand that checked baggage can get a much higher dose in modern airports. The Ilford link just mentions checked baggage x-rays, not carry on.

Maybe, if one is traveling to a "first world" country to do extensive B&W shooting, it could be wise to bring a tank and some sleeves and clips, find some chemistry, and spend your last day processing film in your hotel? If you're that worried anyway...

Ironically it's the other way around most of the poorer countries had to install newer more up to date scanners for carry on luggage to meet the increased global security requirements. The carry on scanners in use in the UK are safe for many multiple scans far more than would be normal even on a long protracted trip.

When we went to Chile & Peru a few years ago my films were scanned at Izmir, Istanbul, Zurich, San Paulo, Santiago, Lima (on landing, Lima (shopping centre), Lima on the way to Cusco, then the same in reverse, It had already been taken to Turkey with from the UK with 3 scans. Some airports scan as you enter and also at the security check my Tmax films 100 & 400 had been scanned at least 20 times before I processed them and there was no more base fog than any of my other films and definitely no difference in grain.

Ian

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Maybe, if one is traveling to a "first world" country to do extensive B&W shooting, it could be wise to bring a tank and some sleeves and clips, find some chemistry, and spend your last day processing film in your hotel? If you're that worried anyway...

I'm certainly not worried. I've travelled with film for years with no worries. I just couldn't believe what Salgado said. An ill-informed remark.

 

[fdonadio]

Being a Brazilian photographer, I can say that Salgado's fame, at least here in Brazil, is a lot more than he deserves. Don't get me wrong: he is an awesome photographer. But I've seen way too much people take his word as absolute truth. And I believe he switched to that other type of camera because of convenience... The sad part is that he switched to Canon from Leica!

 

[SMBooth]

My personal opinion which I form after watching his film ( I had read beforehand that comment about Xray) is that he was burnt out from some of the horrific places that he went to and photographed prior to putting down his cameras.

 

[wiltw]

Kodak has, very a very long time now, had explicit instructions about airport security for carry-ons vs. for checked bags. http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml

The X-Ray for Security is a very brief duration weak beams; CT for checked bags is longer duration, and stronger beams. Security does not fog film, but Kodak advises if you expect that carry-ons go through more than FIVE times, to ask for a hand inspection by Security (only valid suggestion for travel within US airports, as outside the US no one has to grant your wish for hand inspection!). They also tell you to NEVER put unexposed film in checked luggage..."Tests indicate that there is significant fogging of unprocessed film when the film sustains a direct hit by either of the different scanner's high-intensity X-ray beam. Faster films show a more dense fog."

Fog is merely the 'exposure' of film, the grain accumulating electromagnetic radiation; it is not a 'breakdown of grain structure'!

 

[paul_c5x4]

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/faqentries.asp?n=15&t=Airport+Security

I have not heard anything about restrictions on film being taken on board aircraft. If this is true, it will have implications for a trip I have planned in a few weeks and will seriously mess up plans....

 

[pdeeh]

Unfortunately that advice from Ilford is not dated. Did it perhaps apply in the immediate aftermath of the WTC attack in 2001, and has not been updated as restrictions have been relaxed?

There's certainly nothing about film on this page: http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/dangerous-and-restricted-items-what-you-cannot-take-on-board-a-flight

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

We will be updating this statement.

Films are allowed in carry on baggage, what is relevant is that in the UK the security personnel are not 'obliged' to hand search or inspect, regardless and has been well discussed passenger security scanners should not affect film, hold luggage scanners can.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[paul_c5x4]

Thanks for the update Simon.

I suspected the information may have been out of date. I intend to take a couple of boxes of FP4+ & IR820 with me on a trip, and am relieved to know that I can fly without worry.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear paul_c5x4

I hope you, and they, enjoy the trip.....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[removed account4]

i have had film ride through carry on scanners, often ... VERY often
evevn soon after the subway bombings in london when in heathrow there seemed
to be security checkpoints every 100 feet ... none of my film was affected ..
some of it on that trip was scanned IDK 10 -12 times ( round trip )
in basel last year ( 2014 ) and london and frankfurt they didn't want to hand check baggage
and this year in quebec ,...scanners also clearly marked that they will not damage even high iso film .. ( 800 for me )

if it is in carry on i have no worries .. and since 1999 never had problem...
at this point, i am more worried about someone doing a hand check and exposing film because
they don't know what it is, not the scanners ...

 

[wiltw]

if it is in carry on i have no worries .. and since 1999 never had problem...
at this point, i am more worried about someone doing a hand check and exposing film because
they don't know what it is, not the scanners ...

^^^ Travelling with 120 film, I had plastic bags filled with exposed rolls in my carry-on. I pulled out the bags of film and sent the rest through the machine, handing over the bags to the TSA. The guy takes it to the other end of the machine, where I meet up with him and my scanned bags. He takes out one roll of 120 film, looks at it, then asks me "Can you Open it?". I respond is it sealed (pointing out the paper seal), and he again asks "Can you Open it?" to which I respond, "But that would ruin the film!". He continues to look at it for some time, then visibly reluctantly and with doubt visible lets me reclaim my film. :crazy: And that was BEFORE digital cameras had become commonplace...I wonder about now, when someone with rollfilm equipment is almost as anachronistic as the daguerreotype, how much more common such a reaction is!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sending film through baggage x-ray machines instead of carry-on has been a major no-no for many years in all countries.

 

[removed account4]

^^^ Travelling with 120 film, I had plastic bags filled with exposed rolls in my carry-on. I pulled out the bags of film and sent the rest through the machine, handing over the bags to the TSA. The guy takes it to the other end of the machine, where I meet up with him and my scanned bags. He takes out one roll of 120 film, looks at it, then asks me "Can you Open it?". I respond is it sealed (pointing out the paper seal), and he again asks "Can you Open it?" to which I respond, "But that would ruin the film!". He continues to look at it for some time, then visibly reluctantly and with doubt visible lets me reclaim my film. :crazy: And that was BEFORE digital cameras had become commonplace...I wonder about now, when someone with rollfilm equipment is almost as anachronistic as the daguerreotype, how much more common such a reaction is!

over the summer i had film being scanned, i asked for hand inspect ( i was in boston )
they took it out of line, and a 20-30something guy asked me to open the camera bag,
he saw the camera ... and 35mm film and said " what is that" i said 35mm film, this is a film camera"
he looked at me and said he had never heard of film before and he was going to have to swab everything
( 4-5 rolls of film ) i said " go ahead" he gave me back everything and i continued ...
i think that will be the last time i ever ask fo rhand inspect .. as you have shown ..
and with my own experience ive come to the conclusion it is a waste of time, the scanners seem to be harmless...