Do Dye Inks and Pigment Inks Printers Require Different Types of Inkjet Papers?

Tom-Thomas · Nov 25, 2022

Have never thought about this before. A friend of mine is giving away a roll of Fuji FineArt Matte paper which he uses in his Fuji DX100 Printer. Now, the DX100 is a dye ink printer. My Canon is pigment ink printer. I think that it shouldn't matter because, I think, nowadays, inkjet papers are made to be used with either ink types. Googling it yield few results, but a few users on some sites have me a little worried because they claim that it may cause a mess with my Canon pigment ink printer. I don't really believe that but I guess I'll ask the more reliable folks here, just to be safe.

nmp · Nov 26, 2022

The only first hand experience I have in this regard is that I routinely use my Epson Photo Matte paper, that I had bought too much of way back before there were pigment printers when I had their 1280 dye printer. Never thought not to use it later on my HP pigment printer or more recently on the Epson P400. The paper works fine for test printing or sometimes doing nozzle checks and the printer does not seem to care.

From what I can tell from the description, the particular Fuji paper in question is designed specifically for the DX100. So if you use it on your pigment printer, it may or may not give you an optimum result. For example, the pigment ink may not dry as fast or may spread more or less (dot gain) etc. I doubt it will mess up your printer, though (don't sue me....) If the ink does not dry quickly enough, may be there will be some transfer to the "pizza wheels" if the printer has any and you will see artifacts of the same on the darker areas of the print, though on matte paper that should be somewhat muted. You can try a small test print and see how it behaves. Probably use the slowest speed to start. If it OK physically, then there will be the issue of an appropriate icc profile to get the colors correctly. I doubt Fuji would have created one for your Canon. So, for that you will be on your own.

:Niranjan.

gone · Nov 26, 2022

For the paper your friend has, it should be fine. I did a lot of inkjet pigment printing many years ago on an old Epson that used pigment inks, and it worked fine for various papers. The only dye printer I had at the time was an HP of my wife's. That HP was supposed to use the HP proprietary papers, which were expensive, but I found that it and the Epson worked well w/ all sorts of papers.

JerseyDoug · Nov 30, 2022

The manufacturer's online data for the paper should say what types of ink it is compatible with. At least that's true of the Red River and Canson papers I use.

jtk · Dec 10, 2022

I suspect the Fuji paper will gum up any inkjet printer. "old" photo epsons (such as the otherwise excellent 1280 didn't work with pigment inks IMO.

koraks · Dec 12, 2022

jtk said:
I suspect the Fuji paper will gum up any inkjet printer.

Why would it? Virtually all inkjet paper manufactured has been microporous PE for years. Besides, as long as there's no major problem with curl or a defect in the paper transport mechanism, there will be clearance between the head and the paper so nothing from the paper will end up on the head anyway.

The main issues (if any!!) you can expect with today's papers that are dedicated to either dye or pigment inks will be differences in ink bleed. Dye inks will migrate a little easier so they will bleed a little more, which could result in slightly different manufacturing parameters for the paper. Printing with dyes on a 'pigment paper' might give problems with very fine detail rendering, conversely, printing with pigments on dye-dedicated papers could result in issues with granularity when observed with high magnification (dots not bleeding as intended) and/or there may issues be slow drying times. However, since all papers are microporous surfaces anyway, there's probably not much of a difference and indeed virtually all papers in the market are explicitly intended for both dye and pigment applications.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 12, 2022

I own both a Canon PRO-100 (dye-based) and Epson P600 (pigment-based). I've tried a lot of premium inkjet papers, glossy and matte, on both printers. My experience is that there's no substitute for experimenting, since some combinations look better than others. The only generalization I can make is that dyes tend to give better results on glossy papers and pigment on matte papers.

jtk · Dec 13, 2022

koraks said:
Why would it? Virtually all inkjet paper manufactured has been microporous PE for years. Besides, as long as there's no major problem with curl or a defect in the paper transport mechanism, there will be clearance between the head and the paper so nothing from the paper will end up on the head anyway.

The main issues (if any!!) you can expect with today's papers that are dedicated to either dye or pigment inks will be differences in ink bleed. Dye inks will migrate a little easier so they will bleed a little more, which could result in slightly different manufacturing parameters for the paper. Printing with dyes on a 'pigment paper' might give problems with very fine detail rendering, conversely, printing with pigments on dye-dedicated papers could result in issues with granularity when observed with high magnification (dots not bleeding as intended) and/or there may issues be slow drying times. However, since all papers are microporous surfaces anyway, there's probably not much of a difference and indeed virtually all papers in the market are explicitly intended for both dye and pigment applications.

koraks, you asked "why". My answer is that some papers have/had coatings that dissolved in Epson printers, fouling the printers. You're wrong about there being "plenty of clearance". I certainly would discard, rather than testing, that Fuji stuff.

jtk · Dec 13, 2022

Sal Santamaura said:
I own both a Canon PRO-100 (dye-based) and Epson P600 (pigment-based). I've tried a lot of premium inkjet papers, glossy and matte, on both printers. My experience is that there's no substitute for experimenting, since some combinations look better than others. The only generalization I can make is that dyes tend to give better results on glossy papers and pigment on matte papers.

Sal, PRO-10 is pigment, PRO-100 is ink.

Subjectively, the PRO-100 ink machine is nice for painterly or somewhat posterized images. A more artistic friend likes that look. I prefer the more photographic-look of my PRO-10 pigment machine.

I never use glossy paper. Luster surface paper (various brands) avoids that nasty glare. That's what I use when/if I want something to look like my slides look.

I also use matte paper half of the time. My favorite has long been Red River's Aurora Art White, but I have a project that might justify that company's more expensive Palo Duro Etching which may be a little warmer.

Tom-Thomas · Dec 17, 2022

jtk said:
I suspect the Fuji paper will gum up any inkjet printer.

It is made for the Fuji DX100 printer, which is an inkjet printer, so I am not sure about your statement of that it will "gum up any inkjet printer". My friend uses it on his DX100 with zero issue.

jtk · Dec 27, 2022

Tommy, Congratulations to your "friend" who is happy with his Fuji printer.

Personally, I wouldn't risk any Epson or Canon with an unknown or paper that might turn it into junk.

Cost of repair for any Epson or Canon mostly guarantees need for a new machine.

koraks · Dec 27, 2022

jtk said:
Personally, I wouldn't risk any Epson or Canon with an unknown or paper that might turn it into junk.

That's a nice piece of FUD right there.

I wouldn't sweat it with any inkjet paper that will work fine in any inkjet printer without messing it up.

LOL.

jtk · Dec 27, 2022

Koraks, I don't know how/why FUD makes you sweat but I do know that some inkjet papers represent real risk. The coating is sometimes a literal emulsion that needs careful handling. Ask manufacturer's online support or any authorized repair shop.

koraks · Dec 27, 2022

Well, opinions differ, I suppose. Firstly the coating on inkjet paper is very, very rarely a gelatin-like emulsion anymore these days. 99.99% of the stuff is a non-soluble resin that's been made microporous using a corona discharge process. The rare exception I have on hand here is a very poor quality transparency film that does have a gelatin-like emulsion. It's the only inkjet product I've been able to acquire over the years that uses this archaic technology.

Secondly, I've done some pretty ridiculous stuff with my 3880, including running very wavy paper with non-hardened gelatin coatings through it, it's been exposed to hundreds of serious head-strike accidents etc. etc. and it's still working quite well indeed. Print heads are surprisingly tough.

The notion that running any modern inkjet paper through a printer is a serious threat, even if it's not on some manufacturer's compatibility list, just isn't very accurate by today's media availability and printer hardware design

jtk · Jan 1, 2023

Not to argue, but you mentioned "modern inkjet paper" and apparently believe they all have "non-hardened gelatin coatings".

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with some "modern inkjet paper" types....both HP and Fuji make/made inkjet printers that use/used proprietary papers that have/had some sort of coating (or base) that softens/dissolves when printed-over by water-base inks/pigments (like common Canon and Epson).

It's wonderful that you're happy with your 3880. Personally, I don't want to replace printers when they're meeting my needs...so I don't abuse them.

koraks · Jan 1, 2023

Read my posts again, jtk. Your response makes no sense.

wiltw · Jan 1, 2023

JerseyDoug said:
The manufacturer's online data for the paper should say what types of ink it is compatible with. At least that's true of the Red River and Canson papers I use.

Red River makes no specific statement about paper selection for dye-based vs. pigment inks, in a general context. They do state that matte is more permanent than glossy finish paperr. https://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/choose-dye-or-pigment-ink.html

For specific paper, such as Red River Glossy, it states

"compatible with all inkjet printers"

with zero mention of dye vs pigment.

jtk · Jan 1, 2023

wiltw said:
Red River makes no specific statement about paper selection for dye-based vs. pigment inks, in a general context. They do state that matte is more permanent than glossy finish paperr. https://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/choose-dye-or-pigment-ink.html

For specific paper, such as Red River Glossy, it states

"compatible with all inkjet printers"

with zero mention of dye vs pigment.

The papers don't care about compatibility. However they do care about your pigment selection, in order to look best.

The printer has both glossy and matte pigments. In inkjet's old days it was less convenient to select one or the other. Now you just specify matte or glossy and the printer will simply use the one you want. Matte pigments will probably look better on matte paper and glossy pigments won't deliver their best on matte paper.

I like both matte and luster papers, rarely use glossy. The matte papers look better if I select matte pigment. The luster papers look better if I select glossy pigment. I rarely use glossy paper.

gone · Jan 1, 2023

The only printers I knew of that it might have made a difference on were the old HP printers. They used some sort of paper that was designed specifically for their inks and printers. But this was ages ago, and those printers are probably all dead and buried now.

My Epsons would print on anything you could feed into it (and clog w/ any ink you put into them too). I would think you could use today's papers w/ any type of ink, but yes, play around and experiment. One would think that pigmented inks might have a different look that dye inks, but both should work fine w/ any papers, including watercolor.

Tom-Thomas · Jan 2, 2023

jtk said:
Tommy, Congratulations to your "friend" who is happy with his Fuji printer.

(1) Why do you put the quotation marks on the word friend? What are you insinuating there and why? It's just a bizarre remark.

(2) You said and I quote: "I suspect the Fuji paper will gum up any inkjet printer." This statement of yours simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would Fuji manufacture an inkjet paper that will gum up ANY inkjet printer? Do you have experience with this paper? What do you base your suspicion on? And the fact is that my friend — yes, my friend — use this paper on his DX100 INKJECT printer and has never seen the printer gummed up.

Tom-Thomas · Jan 2, 2023

Haven't been able to find an answer on Fujifilm's website about this paper.

But in general, I check Hahnemuehle, and for most of their inkjet papers I check it says they are compatible with both types of ink. For the other they simply don't mention ink type compatibility at all.

Then I check Canson, for most of the papers, they say "Optimised for pigment inks". Some of them says "Optimised for pigment inks. Compatible with dye inks"

I email Red River and they say all except one of their papers are compatible with both types of inks. The exception being their 32 lbs Premium Gloss which is for dye ink only because, they say, pigment inks will not completely dry on it (I suspect that it is because this paper is so thin and light — only 5.5 mil thick and 120 gsm in weight).

On Lexjet, they sell too many papers for me to check them all, but for the 20 or so of their house brand and Epson papers I check, they are all compatible with both ink types.

jtk · Jan 2, 2023

Tom-Thomas said:
(1) Why do you put the quotation marks on the word friend? What are you insinuating there and why? It's just a bizarre remark.

(2) You said and I quote: "I suspect the Fuji paper will gum up any inkjet printer." This statement of yours simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would Fuji manufacture an inkjet paper that will gum up ANY inkjet printer? Do you have experience with this paper? What do you base your suspicion on? And the fact is that my friend — yes, my friend — use this paper on his DX100 INKJECT printer and has never seen the printer gummed up.

Tom, it'd be good if you understood the difference between "optimized" and "compatible." Perhaps you have some sort of printer and could ask online or telephone support about the paper that's in discussion.

I don't know from personal experience what a DX100 is, and I don't think many of on Photrio have even heard of it. Online description doesn't suggest that it's similar to the sort of inkjet printer that many of us use. Sounds like a special purpose printer. Perhaps intended to print on vinyl.

I think it would be fun if you had some personal experience with that particular printer and paper and could tell us how that paper works with your own Epson or Canon. My guess is that there's a compatibility issue .

fwiw, inkjet printers are not all the same and are not all compatible with every type of inkjet pigment/ink.

I used quotation marks because "friend" is so often used when a person lacks personal experience. Sorry to have stepped on your toes.

good luck

koraks · Jan 2, 2023

jtk said:
Perhaps intended to print on vinyl.

Given that it's marketed as part of the Frontier product line, it's aimed at low- to mid-volume photofinishing on a regular paper paper, not a film of some sort. Indeed, the specifications support this: https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/busi...lab-solutions/frontier-s-dx100/specifications

Fuji makes their own printheads and those will evidently be different from Epson's or Canon's (although they may use each other's technology in some products; I don't know), but I'd be surprised if the basic concept is any different from any desktop inkjet printer. At a fundamental technology level, pretty much all photo printing heads are the same, consisting of an array of piezoelectrically fired nozzles. There are of course many, many differences between individual products if you start looking at the details, but critical parameters (in this context) such as the clearance to the paper will be in the same order of magnitude for sure, since there's just so much wiggle room possible when jetting droplets of ink onto paper at a decent resolution.

The DX100 is a dye-based ink system; the paper that goes into it is explicitly stated to have a water-resistant surface. To me, that sounds like any old inkjet paper finish, which is a corona-discharge treated, microporous polymer film. Not the kind of stuff that will gum up, since it's not water-soluble. Sure, it will be optimized for Fuji's application, but that doesn't make it very likely it would damage or foul up any other inkjet system.

nmp · Jan 2, 2023

Talk about beating a dead horse. OP asked whether the paper "may cause a mess with my Canon pigment ink printer..." He didn't ask whether the print will look good or colors will be right out of the box - they most certainly won't. That's why you have to try and see. I have no clue what all the other discussion is about. How much does it take for the OP to take a piece and print something.

Just do it....

:Niranjan.

jtk · Jan 2, 2023

I'm glad that we've returned to polite discourse ... hostility appears to have vanished. Happy New Year to all

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