DIY paper washer - enough flow?

Jessestr · Mar 3, 2016

I made my own paper washer since I'm not sure that I will do enough fiber to get a real print washer like the washmaster eco...

I made a video where you can see the flow of the water. It's been running for an hour now and the blue is still not gone ... so I'm wondering if this is enough flow to actually wash the print? It's 27 liters / hour. So it needs about 3 hours to cycle the whole storage box.

I've heard that you may not use too much pressure on the water so I just let the water sip in slowly.. Could this work or do I need more pressure?

(still have to make the paper slots, but wanna make sure this is good first.. just a quick mockup of what I want to do, probably will add the hose with a real connection to the tap etc)

paul ron · Mar 3, 2016

i don't think you're getting enough water changes. my washer gets at least 4 complete water changes an hour. im not sure what the newer water saving washers do.

Jessestr · Mar 3, 2016

paul ron said:
i don't think you're getting enough water changes. my washer gets at least 4 complete water changes an hour. im not sure what the newer water saving washers do.

The washmaster eco does about 60 liters to 90 liters an hour. It's a huge tank I have, think it's about 90 liters. So in theory, there is enough fresh water in there already to wash a print? I'll try to get up the flow and pressure and see how it turns out. Thanks

David Allen · Mar 4, 2016

Before you do any further work, I would recommend that you read Martin Read's thorough research into washing prints. You will find that there are many factors to consider other than the rate of water flow.

It is available on the UK analogue website:

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296&highlight=vortex

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Neal · Mar 4, 2016

Dear Jessestr,

First, nice washer. If you rinse your prints after fixing, use hypo clearing agent (not needed for RC paper), rinse and place in your washer it is very unlikely that you will not wash sufficiently. If you are truly interested in finding out how good a job you are doing, try this test. If you do any toning, you will see stains where the washing is insufficient.

A suggestion. I would modify the design so that each print is in its own chamber and fed with it's own pipe, have it's own area for overflow and prevent cross contamination when a new print is added. I think your design can be modified to do this pretty easily. Attached are a couple of photos of the washer I built in 2008. To date, no stains after toning.

I hope I added these correctly.

Neal Wydra

Jessestr · Mar 4, 2016

David Allen said:
Before you do any further work, I would recommend that you read Martin Read's thorough research into washing prints. You will find that there are many factors to consider other than the rate of water flow.

Thanks!

Neal said:
Dear Jessestr,

First, nice washer. If you rinse your prints after fixing, use hypo clearing agent (not needed for RC paper), rinse and place in your washer it is very unlikely that you will not wash sufficiently. If you are truly interested in finding out how good a job you are doing, try this test. If you do any toning, you will see stains where the washing is insufficient.

A suggestion. I would modify the design so that each print is in its own chamber and fed with it's own pipe, have it's own area for overflow and prevent cross contamination when a new print is added. I think your design can be modified to do this pretty easily. Attached are a couple of photos of the washer I built in 2008. To date, no stains after toning.

View attachment 151850 View attachment 151851

I hope I added these correctly.

Neal Wydra

Nice washer! I was planning to make one out of plexi but I didn't find how I could attach everything together.. also a nice idea to have separate chambers, maybe I'll just make a new version like yours. Could you tell me how you cut and mounted the plexi? I will definatly use hypo, more ecological in terms of water, and faster workflow, so that's nice !

removed account4 · Mar 4, 2016

I would also recommend using a hypo clearing chemical. you will find you don't
need to wash regular prints as long. also look at what is written about soaking
prints and water changes rather than gallons and gallons and gallons of wash water.
nice washer btw!

Jessestr · Mar 4, 2016

jnanian said:
I would also recommend using a hypo clearing chemical. you will find you don't
need to wash regular prints as long. also look at what is written about soaking
prints and water changes rather than gallons and gallons and gallons of wash water.
nice washer btw!

Thank you.. Will check out the documentation online!

Neal said:
Dear Jessestr,
If you do any toning, you will see stains where the washing is insufficient.

Neal Wydra

I had issues with the stains when I started toning, because a piece of the paper wasn't washed. But what I find odd is that using Ilford's method:

1. Fix
2. Tone (mixed with washaid)
3. Washaid rinse
4. Final wash

They tone directly after fixing, which makes me wonder, why won't it stain? it hasn't been washed ... and will the toner not get contaminated more quickly due to the fixer that gets in the toner?

Thanks

R.Gould · Mar 4, 2016

Jessestr said:
Thank you.. Will check out the documentation online!

I had issues with the stains when I started toning, because a piece of the paper wasn't washed. But what I find odd is that using Ilford's method:

1. Fix
2. Tone (mixe

Jessestr said:

Thank you.. Will check out the documentation online!

I had issues with the stains when I started toning, because a piece of the paper wasn't washed. But what I find odd is that using Ilford's method:

1. Fix
2. Tone (mixed with washaid)
3. Washaid rinse
4. Final wash

They tone directly after fixing, which makes me wonder, why won't it stain? it hasn't been washed ... and will the toner not get contaminated more quickly due to the fixer that gets in the toner?

Thanks

Click to expand...

d with washaid)
3. Washaid rinse
4. Final wash

They tone directly after fixing, which makes me wonder, why won't it stain? it hasn't been washed ... and will the toner not get contaminated more quickly due to the fixer that gets in the toner?

Thanks[/QUOTE
Assuming you are refering to Selinium toner the reason for hypo clearing after toning is because the toner contains fixer, so hypo clear after toning makes sense, I use the Kodak hypo clear, it is much cheaper than the Ilford product, comes in powder form so you have to mix it, then dilute it at 200ml to 1 litre but you get 3.8L which dilutes to 19 litres, and at around £5GBP per packet is very cheap

Ronald Moravec · Mar 5, 2016

Jessestr said:
Thank you.. Will check out the documentation online!

I had issues with the stains when I started toning, because a piece of the paper wasn't washed. But what I find odd is that using Ilford's method:

1. Fix
2. Tone (mixed with washaid)
3. Washaid rinse
4. Final wash

They tone directly after fixing, which makes me wonder, why won't it stain? it hasn't been washed ... and will the toner not get contaminated more quickly due to the fixer that gets in the toner?

Thanks

Assuming selenium toner, two tray fix with rapid fix, 15 sec rinse, selenium tone to taste, now do archival wash. Been doing this for decades and no stains. The other choice is two archival washes, B/4 & after tone. Fred Picker of Zone VI come up with system.

As far as washing, you can not have any dead spots in a washer. The best wash is fill a tray with water, put in prints one at a time and interleave while filling a second tray. Transfer prints one at a time to second tray, and interleave while emptying and refilling first tray.

Repeat 4 times, 8 trays of fresh uncontaminated water. Economical water use. interleave 2/3 times through the stack and move them one at a time to next tray.

This works for me for around 50 years now and never lost a print. Also cheap, but labor intensive.

Neal · Mar 5, 2016

Jessestr said:
Could you tell me how you cut and mounted the plexi?

The actual material used was 1/4" thick polycarbonate (trade name Lexan). I used a table saw with a fine tooth blade to cut grooves for permanent joints and for sliding the separator pieces in and out. All the joints are held together using industrial RTV Silicone. The holes were drilled with a drill press but I think a hand drill would work just as well. Having said that, I really don't think you need to go that far. Your washer can be re-piped so that dividers can be added and each section gets its own flow. You are already so close. Besides, if it's already doing a good job it would be more fun to spend the time printing.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

Doremus Scudder · Mar 6, 2016

The only way to really make sure your washer is doing the job is to test for residual hypo. You can use the Kodak HT-2 test. The original Kodak document is here: http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j11-1985_04.pdf . You can get the "hypo-estimator" color patch strip from the UnblinkingEye website here: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html (scroll down to the bottom of the page).

Once you've figured everything out, simply set up your washer, fix as normal several sheets of unexposed paper. Put these in your washer and then pull them out and test them at intervals (e.g. 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 minutes) for six sheets. Do full-sheet tests by immersing the whole sheet in a tray of the test solution. You should easily be able to see if 1) your washer is doing the job at all and 2) how long you need for an adequate wash.

Best,

Doremus

RalphLambrecht · Mar 7, 2016

Jessestr said:
I made my own paper washer since I'm not sure that I will do enough fiber to get a real print washer like the washmaster eco...

I made a video where you can see the flow of the water. It's been running for an hour now and the blue is still not gone ... so I'm wondering if this is enough flow to actually wash the print? It's 27 liters / hour. So it needs about 3 hours to cycle the whole storage box.

I've heard that you may not use too much pressure on the water so I just let the water sip in slowly.. Could this work or do I need more pressure?

(still have to make the paper slots, but wanna make sure this is good first.. just a quick mockup of what I want to do, probably will add the hose with a real connection to the tap etc)

I think, you'll be fine.The principle of washing FB-paper is based on diffusion. So, just keep the water below the fresh-water equilibrium.In other words as long as the fixer concentration is higher in the print than in the water you are washing.For that,you only need a low flow rate;eveb Niagra falls won't wash any faster or better.

adelorenzo · Mar 7, 2016

My Versalab washer runs at 0.5 Gallons/minute, which is in their recommended range. I use a flow control valve to regulate it. That means I'm using something like 113 L of water per hour.

Jessestr · Mar 10, 2016

adelorenzo said:
My Versalab washer runs at 0.5 Gallons/minute, which is in their recommended range. I use a flow control valve to regulate it. That means I'm using something like 113 L of water per hour.

That's a lot!

I ended up getting a Washmaster Eco... Much smaller and more efficient then my DIY stuff

DIY paper washer - enough flow?

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