Diy color chemistry

soysos · Mar 13, 2017

So, after about a 4 year pause I'm in the process of getting my darkroom up and running. One thing I've All ways wanted to do is get setup for color. The problem is the short shelf life of the developer has made this cost prohibitive. I shoot color so infrequently that I would basically have to buy fresh chems for each session. So I've been looking into making my own from component chemicals, but I can't seem to track down a source of Ferric ammonium edta. The formula I found gives another version using potassium ferricyanide as a bleach then fixing in flexicolor fixer. It only gives this combo for c- 41. Would it also work with ra4? Does it have to be flexicolor, or will any ammonium thiosulfate based fixer work?

I've got probably a dozen rolls of b&w to keep me busy for some time before I start this project. I just want to do the research for the time being. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

RPC · Mar 13, 2017

It is an absolute myth that color developers have a short shelf life. As has been posted here many times, if developers are stored in filled, high quality plastic or glass containers, and tightly sealed, they can last many months without degradation. You can mix your own chemistry from scratch, but don't think you have to do it because of short chemistry life.

soysos · Mar 13, 2017

That's the thing I'm doing maybe 4 or 5 rolls of color per year. When I did develop my own I ruined so much just from chemistry that has gone bad. I've gotten a bid smarter, and now test the developer and fixer before each session. I just really like the idea of mixing fresh for every session. I've got the developer figured out, but I'm really struggling to find information on bleach and fixer.

RPC · Mar 13, 2017

I know it may hard to believe but I have had color developers last YEARS (more than three) stored this way. I routinely use it that old, and it has hardly changed color from when fresh. It goes dark when oxidized and bad, and the key is to prevent the developer from oxidizing and storing it in the above manner does this. It is a damn shame more don't know this. I use Kodak chemistry, so can't comment on the others but I would guess the results are similar. Feel free to mix it fresh, but be aware of the facts.

soysos · Mar 13, 2017

It's not the developer that concerns me. It's the blix that causes problems. What I'm considering is using ferricyanide as a bleaching agent and regular b&w fixer. I just wanted to know if this was possible. I know I can use the ferricyanide for c41, but can't find anything on ra4. The fixer might be a pipe dream, but I've heard that flexicolor is universal, so I can see switching to that for everything.

Rudeofus · Mar 13, 2017

Neither C-41, nor E6 materials are rated for and tested with Ferricyanide bleaches, but general consensus is that they work just fine. Fixer pH is critical and should be somewhere close to 6.5, which will exclude most rapid fixers. Odorless rapid fixers should work, though.

Now to your 5-6 rolls per year: you need quite a few chemical compounds to mix C-41 CD, some of them quite specialized. You will quickly discover, that with this volume of films per year you are cheapest by having them done in a lab, second cheapest option is getting an one liter liquid concentrate kit, splitting it in half and running your film in two batches with 2-3 rolls each. Mixing from scratch means considerable upfront costs for raw ingredients, plus space used for safe storage of these chems.

Homebrewing can be a satisfying and highly educational enterprise, and it gives you lots of flexibility regarding expired film or special requirements, but with 5-6 rolls per year you are heading towards expensive disappointment.

soysos · Mar 13, 2017

The big reason I'm considering the homebrew approach is I already make my own developer for b&w. The additional compounds needed are about the same cost as a kit. Good to know that my plan will work for c41, I use an odorless fixer with a nominal ph of 6.5. Now I just need to figure out the ra4.

I have heard that Ferric ammonium citrate is a suitable replacement for Ferric ammonium edta in an ra4 blix, but I can't find anything on the proportion. Other than its different than the edta.

Rudeofus · Mar 14, 2017

soysos said:
The big reason I'm considering the homebrew approach is I already make my own developer for b&w. The additional compounds needed are about the same cost as a kit. Good to know that my plan will work for c41, I use an odorless fixer with a nominal ph of 6.5. Now I just need to figure out the ra4.

Stefan Lange provided some very nice recipes for C-41 CD (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and (there was a url link here which no longer exists) on APUG. You will discover, that color developers are formulated quite a bit differently from black&white developers, and that you will need quite a few chemical compounds - and a decent pH meter to boot.

soysos said:
I have heard that Ferric ammonium citrate is a suitable replacement for Ferric ammonium edta in an ra4 blix, but I can't find anything on the proportion. Other than its different than the edta.

You will need a bunch of chems (KI, HAS, CD-4) which are not common in black&white work and next to impossible to replace, so I'd say don't bother with Ferric Ammonium Citrate or whatever. Get Ammonium Ferric EDTA from a supplier and be done with it. If you tell us at least which continent you live on, we can give you a list of suppliers for these compounds.

Endeavourx · Mar 14, 2017

This may be sacrilege on here; but for such low volume I'd probably just stick to the unicolor type kits which have a glacial lifespan compared to the liquid chemistry and no special storage requirements & just mix up a kit when needed. They are cheap enough to have a few at the back of the shelf until called upon.

sure you dont get the same process control but the thought of concocting my own chemistry for 5 rolls a year seems like a lot of effort.

soysos · Mar 14, 2017

Rudeofus said:
Stefan Lange provided some very nice recipes for C-41 CD (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and (there was a url link here which no longer exists) on APUG. You will discover, that color developers are formulated quite a bit differently from black&white developers, and that you will need quite a few chemical compounds - and a decent pH meter to boot.

You will need a bunch of chems (KI, HAS, CD-4) which are not common in black&white work and next to impossible to replace, so I'd say don't bother with Ferric Ammonium Citrate or whatever. Get Ammonium Ferric EDTA from a supplier and be done with it. If you tell us at least which continent you live on, we can give you a list of suppliers for these compounds.

Sorry, I live in Ohio. Developer is no the issue, I have probably 2/3 of the needed chemicals already, and the ones I don't are readily available. the issue I'm running into is the bleaching agent. The ferric ammonium EDTA. I can't source it, that's why I'm looking for an alternative. I've seen repeatedly that potassium ferricyanide works just fine in C-41, but I can't find anything for RA4. I'm primarily interested in RA4 processing, and see C-41 as a possible bonus.

afriman · Mar 14, 2017

Commercial bleach lasts a very long time. So, to a lesser extent, does fixer. I suggest you get hold of some and follow the ample advice available on these forums to get the most out of it. C41 fixer is very cheap and truly universal - you can use it for E6, black and white, film and paper. I would be very surprised if you could mix your own from raw chemicals for less. With your film consumption, it would probably be best to use the chemicals one-shot. Do some research on their keeping properties and buy an appropriate amount. Without spending much, you should be able to buy enough to last you for years. And even using it one-shot, I'm pretty sure it will be cheaper than having the film processed by a lab.

soysos · Mar 14, 2017

Redfox61 said:
Commercial bleach lasts a very long time. So, to a lesser extent, does fixer. I suggest you get hold of some and follow the ample advice available on these forums to get the most out of it. C41 fixer is very cheap and truly universal - you can use it for E6, black and white, film and paper. I would be very surprised if you could mix your own from raw chemicals for less. With your film consumption, it would probably be best to use the chemicals one-shot. Do some research on their keeping properties and buy an appropriate amount. Without spending much, you should be able to buy enough to last you for years. And even using it one-shot, I'm pretty sure it will be cheaper than having the film processed by a lab.

Any suggestions on what chems to start with? Would c41 bleach and fixer work for ra4 as well, or does it have to be a separate mix? I've already spent to much money to get up and running again, so color will probably have to wait a while. I'm just trying to find out what I need. I need to find the longest shelf life possible, and my experience with c41 the blix went bad after 6 months.

chassis · Mar 14, 2017

soysos there is a sticky in this forum with the chemicals to start with. It was written by user "bvy".

It is highly recommended to read through all, yes all, the pages of posts in this forum as a sort of tutorial, reference guide or instruction manual. I did this and it was well worth the modest investment of time.

soysos · Mar 14, 2017

chassis said:
soysos there is a sticky in this forum with the chemicals to start with. It was written by user "bvy".

It is highly recommended to read through all, yes all, the pages of posts in this forum as a sort of tutorial, reference guide or instruction manual. I did this and it was well worth the modest investment of time.

Unfortunately that thread didn't answer my biggest question. Can potassium ferricyanide bleach, and flexicolor fixer be used to process ra4 paper. If the answer is yes, I already have them, and only need to buy developer.

RPC · Mar 15, 2017

The use of a ferricyanide bleach complicates the process. Here are the required steps:

1. developer
2. clearing stop (acetic acid + sodium sulfite)
3. wash
4. ferricyanide bleach (potassium ferricyanide + potassium bromide)
5. wash
6. C-41 fixer
7. wash

For paper, the bleach and fixer is diluted 1:1 from film-use strength. The clearing stop bath and wash is absolutely necessary to prevent any carry-over developer into the bleach from being oxidized and staining the image. The ferri bleach and fixer cannot be mixed and have any useful life.

Compare to the regular (minimal) required steps:

1. developer
2. bleach-fix
3. wash

Now, doesn't the regular chemistry look much more attractive?

soysos · Mar 15, 2017

I never said it didn't. I just want to work with what I already have as much as possible to keep the costs down.

RPC · Mar 15, 2017

No, but you had tried to source ferric ammonium EDTA. If I were you I would keep trying for simplicity's sake.

RPC · Mar 15, 2017

Here is another thought. I don't know if you use drums, a processor or trays for paper, but if you go the ferricyanide route you just about have to use trays; the thorough washes needed would make the use of the others more difficult, I would think. Running water would be imperative.

soysos · Mar 15, 2017

RPC said:
No, but you had tried to source ferric ammonium EDTA. If I were you I would keep trying for simplicity's sake.

Ferric ammonium would be ideal since I have everything else I'd need to make blix. The only source I can find is an agricultural supplier, and they have a 50 pound minimum.

I do have a jobo processor, but only one drum. So I had planned to use trays.

soysos · Mar 15, 2017

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the purpose of the bleach is to convert metallic silver back into silver halide, so fixer can wash it out. This leaves only the dye image behind. In theory couldn't one simply do develop, stop, fix, wash, and bleach the print after the fact in daylight?

RPC · Mar 15, 2017

soysos said:
...the purpose of the bleach is to convert metallic silver back into silver halide, so fixer can wash it out.

So doesn't that mean the fixer always has to follow the bleach?

soysos · Mar 15, 2017

RPC said:
So doesn't that mean the fixer always has to follow the bleach?

Technically, but since it has already been fixed once it could be done in daylight. This could also offer some creative control. With a great deal of expirimetation.

afriman · Mar 15, 2017

Honestly, with only four or five rolls per year, I wonder if you won't be better off just buying the smallest kit you can get (probably 1 liter, but I've also seen 500 ml kits advertised) and using it as optimally as you can. There is a lot of advice on these forums and elsewhere on maximizing the life of the developer. If you can't get it to last for more than a year, you can always scratch-mix some developer (assuming you have the chemicals) and use that with the kit's bleach and fix, which probably will be good for at least double the number of rolls the kit is rated for.

Bob Carnie · Sep 20, 2017

Could anyone direct me to a source of Ammonium Dichromate in Powder form that I can purchase in Europe??

thanks

Anon Ymous · Sep 20, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Could anyone direct me to a source of Ammonium Dichromate in Powder form that I can purchase in Europe??

thanks

Keten.com.pl
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Diy color chemistry

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