Dividing up a pack of XTOL

machine · May 29, 2021

Hi,

I am planning to buy a "makes 5L" pack of XTOL (actually - Eco Pro ascorbic acid developer) and divide that into smaller batches using a sensitive scale.

Reasons:
1. I won't be using all 5L (actually 10, as I am planning to use 1:1 for economy) in the next 6 months. Especially as I also intend to use HC-110 in parallel.
2. This is much cheaper than buying the "makes 1L" pack (made by Foma).
3. As the powder is in two parts - I am guessing that I will not end up with non-uniform batches for whatever reason (powder settling, clumping, etc.)

Has anyone done this please? Where may my reasoning be wrong? Thanks.

Sirius Glass · May 29, 2021

There are many threads on this. Do not divide powders. Mix 5 liters, divide it into 1 liter containers and seal tightly. I use air tight bladders and it lasts for years. Test any developer on a film strip before developing film every time you start developing film if a period of time has passed since the last time.

MatthewDunn · May 29, 2021

machine said:
...using a sensitive scale...I am guessing that I will not end up with non-uniform batches for whatever reason (powder settling, clumping, etc.)

As you note, even though you may try to apportion "batches" equally, given that the heaviest chemicals have shifted to the bottom of the package and the lightest to the top, it is highly unlikely (read, impossible) that your "batches" are actually chemically the same.

MattKing · May 29, 2021

You need some fairly expensive special equipment and probably more than a single package in order to avoid ending up with a non-uniform result - different development results with different batches.
It isn't just different weights of the components that matter.

RalphLambrecht · May 29, 2021

machine said:
Hi,

I am planning to buy a "makes 5L" pack of XTOL (actually - Eco Pro ascorbic acid developer) and divide that into smaller batches using a sensitive scale.

Reasons:
1. I won't be using all 5L (actually 10, as I am planning to use 1:1 for economy) in the next 6 months. Especially as I also intend to use HC-110 in parallel.
2. This is much cheaper than buying the "makes 1L" pack (made by Foma).
3. As the powder is in two parts - I am guessing that I will not end up with non-uniform batches for whatever reason (powder settling, clumping, etc.)

Has anyone done this please? Where may my reasoning be wrong? Thanks.

You are better of prepring the entire pack and then divide the liquid into smaller bottles.

grat · May 29, 2021

I'm not disagreeing with the conventional wisdom that much, but to me, the commercial powders (D-76, I haven't opened my XTOL yet) look pretty homogeneous, as if they're produced as a liquid then the solid is precipitated / dried out. According to more than one source, D76 in particular, you can measure out quantities for a single batch of developer. XTOL is more complicated because it's two different solids that would have to be measured.

MattKing · May 29, 2021

In at least some cases, the individual components of powdered chemicals are actually mixed in the bags you buy.
They are never truly homogenous until mixed with water.

mshchem · May 29, 2021

If you use pure water, ideally distilled or equivalent from Wal-Mart. Make up the 5L and fill up 20 ounce, 1L etc soda bottles. It will keep for a very long time IN ABSOLUTELY FULL SODA BOTTLES.

grat · May 29, 2021

MattKing said:
In at least some cases, the individual components of powdered chemicals are actually mixed in the bags you buy.
They are never truly homogenous until mixed with water.

Understood. That's why I said I wasn't trying to argue (I know, yet, here I am... ), but that in some cases, specifically D76, it appears to be viable. While I fully intend to go through a 5L batch of XTOL, I suspect, being an intermittent user, I'm going to keep using Ilfosol 3 and/or DD-X, as they're distributed as concentrates.

I'm not particularly a trail-blazer (I have enough problems), but I'm always interested in what other people learn via experimentation.

foc · May 30, 2021

grat said:
According to more than one source, D76 in particular, you can measure out quantities for a single batch of developer.

Yes I have also read about this. In fact I am waiting for D76 to be back instock and I will order and test the small-batch theory. D76 should be easy as it is all one pack. I might also try Ilford ID11 (pack A pack B) and see how I get on.

Murray Kelly · May 30, 2021

Left field. If you're game, dump the 600g +- into the blender. Stop a couple of times to shake it up and finally bag the small amounts. There is no guarantee it will last all that long as I found out with a D-72 pack, but your curiosity will be satisfied.

pentaxuser · May 30, 2021

Foc, I for one would be interested in the results of your forthcoming experiment. I presume that even if it works OK the other problem is that having opened the pack and divided it you need to have smaller packets that can then be fully sealed and are airtight? Where might such packets be obtained?

pentaxuser

grat · May 30, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Foc, I for one would be interested in the results of your forthcoming experiment. I presume that even if it works OK the other problem is that having opened the pack and divided it you need to have smaller packets that can then be fully sealed and are airtight? Where might such packets be obtained?

For food preservation and sous vide cooking, I have a vacuum sealer that uses rolls instead of bags. You put the powder into the vacuum bag, leaving a fair amount of space at the top. Cut the seal off the top of the bag, measure out what you want, reseal the bag. Each time you do this, the bag shortens by about an inch or two.

I should note that even with my sealer, which is pretty high on the vacuum level, the powder does start to discolor over the course of about 6-9 months. I don't know if it's still viable-- I haven't tested it yet.

Wallendo · May 30, 2021

Most of us here are from the "Don't do it" camp, so there is very little anecdotal experience. Splitting chemicals might work; that is, variations between mixtures would be within your personal parameters.
In light of the recent issues with a bad batch of XTOL which apparently was packaging related, I would be very hesitant to mix any XTOL (or clone) from any chemicals which had been removed from the original packagings prior to mixture.

As for using XTOL and HC-110 in parallel, I started to do that but quickly changed to almost exclusively XTOL. In my experience, there is little that HC-110 can do that XTOL doesn't do as well or better. I still keep some HC-110 as a backup but rarely use it.

I package my mixed XTOL in liter water bottles filled to the brim and always do a quick clip test before developing. My test is just to take a small piece of exposed liter or other film and put it in a small amount of XTOL and see if it turns blackish. If it does, I go ahead and use the developer. Others here develop to tighter tolerances and will fix the clip test film to assess the degree of exposure - I just worry about the infamous sudden catastrophic failure I have read about but have never experienced.

removed account4 · May 30, 2021

I once photographed company that made / packaged / sold dehydrated soup, and another company that sold mixed nuts. both of these places had proprietary machines that mixed things up. op just go to the giant yard sale and get amber bottles. nothing worse than getting too many filberts and not enough wasabi peas..

Craig · May 30, 2021

I mix up the 5L, then put it into wine bags, with the tap. Then I can easily dispense the amount I need and the rest of the stock solution stays free of air. I have kept the stock solution for up to 3 years and did some densitometry tests compared to a fresh batch and it was still good.

MattKing · May 30, 2021

I expect that anyone who finds 5 litres to be too much probably isn't set up to be able to accurately measure whether smaller batches of powder are consistent batch to batch.
I can understand wanting to do this because of space concerns, but given its relatively low price, it really isn't an expensive problem if your 5th or even 4th litre bottle of mixed up stock has to be discarded. We are talking about 3 - 5 dollars, in a space of 6 - 12 months.
Of course the best solution is to use it up by developing more film.
One further point: if you are space limited, you can mix up a slightly more concentrated stock solution in 4, not 5 litres, and then dilute the amount you need immediately before use.

machine · May 30, 2021

Thanks to all. This is a lot of food for thought, very helpful.

I had convinced myself I could make it work, but will now think some more.

Specifically - I am going to refer the MSDS and then look up the specific gravities of the different compounds (separately for parts A & B).

Besk · May 30, 2021

I agree with the mix it all crowd. And that is what I have been doing for several years with Xtol.
There is a technique that I learned in a lab for taking samples of powders that worked with D76 for me but it is risky with Xtol. Plus, storing smaller quantities of the powders
increases the chance of degradation.

MattKing · May 30, 2021

machine said:
Thanks to all. This is a lot of food for thought, very helpful.

I had convinced myself I could make it work, but will now think some more.

Specifically - I am going to refer the MSDS and then look up the specific gravities of the different compounds (separately for parts A & B).

How do you know that there aren't combinations of some of the compounds that aren't already together?
Manufacturing for the purpose of making something practical to package and ship is not a trivial matter.

machine · May 30, 2021

MattKing said:
How do you know that there aren't combinations of some of the compounds that aren't already together?
Manufacturing for the purpose of making something practical to package and ship is not a trivial matter.

No doubt you are correct. However using 10L of Xtol 1:1 is not something I can commit to in 6 months.

Even if I were to throw away some, I will still need to buy a 6 liter container, and 5 x 1 liter bottles. M o r e s t u f f.

Still - I will probably lump it and buy the lot. XTOL, mixing container/bucket, bottles. Especially because of the safety of the XTOL (when it comes to disposal).

I'm guessing glass bottles rather than plastic, will do better (I am planning to fill to the top, of course).

Wallendo · May 30, 2021

I mix the chemicals in a plain clean bucket. For storage afterwards, I usually pick up a 6-pack of “Smart Water” bottled water in 1 liter bottles. These are thicker and stronger than most other brands, they are reusable, have decent screw-on tops and work well in my experience. They are clear, but I store them in a cabinet. Just make sure they are labeled well so no-one tries to drink XTOL.

MattKing · May 30, 2021

Why scare yourself with the idea of 10 litres?
You mix and store the stock solution. If necessary, you can mix it at a higher concentration and store it in 4 one litre bottles.
If you intend to use it 1 +1, just dilute the more concentrated stock 1 + 1.25.
If you buy a 4 litre jug of distilled water, it is probably possible to mix it in the jug.
But failing that, a dollar store pail works great for mixing.
And if you only use three of the four litres of the stock in the six months, besides the fact that the fourth litre will likely be fine, the amount that you will actually waste by discarding the last litre won't be hugely valuable.

Nige · May 30, 2021

machine said:
However using 10L of Xtol 1:1 is not something I can commit to in 6 months.

Even if I were to throw away some, I will still need to buy a 6 liter container, and 5 x 1 liter bottles. M o r e s t u f f.

You only mix 5L then dilute that 1:1 when you go to use it. So, you need storage of 5L not 10.

EDIT : Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but I'll leave it in case I'm not.

MatthewDunn · May 30, 2021

My only suggestion is that you consider how you, as a person, react when your film doesn't turn out as expected.

Personally, I get pretty emotionally invested and can be a bit of a wreck (and a bear to be around) when something doesn't work out for some reason. Others are a little more carefree. There is no wrong or right, there is you just you identifying which kind of photographer you are. If you are like me, I would be constantly tearing out my hair over bad results, questioning whether it was the way the developer was mixed (if "partitioned", as you propose) or whether there was something else in my process gone wrong.

Dividing up a pack of XTOL

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Dividing up a pack of XTOL

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