DIVIDING ERIC PATTON'S E-76 FORMULA

Curious by what I read on the net about divided D-76, I wanted to do the same with Eric Patton's Metol/Hydroqiunone free E-76 formula.
So this is what I did :
I inspired me on the David Vestal's Divided D-76 formula I found on greenspun.com and divided the E-76 about the same way:

Part A -> 1 lit
Phenidone: 20 cc 1% solution
Sodium sulfite: 50 gr.
Ascorbic Acid: 8 gr.

Part B -> 1 lit
Sodium sulfite: 50 gr.
Borax: 12 gr.

Film: Tri-X 400/120 @ 400 ASA
Processing : all @ 20°C; pre wet +/-5 min, Part A 4 min, Part B 10 min (no intermitted rinsing) then stop, fix and wash the normal way.
The results where catastrophic there was a very faint image, only the highlights came slightly trough, useless to print.
So, can somebody tell me what I did wrong?
Thanx!

Here is the sorry story of my failure:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Basically, you can get an image using a high enough concentration of phenidone and a sufficiently alkaline B-bath but it is not 2-bath development as generally meant.The image is produced by carry-over of phenidone on the film ,tank and reel making the B-bath a developer on its own, there is no exhaustion of the phenidone as would be the case if it was only there absorbed on the emulsion.
I never read of a way round this problem, it does not occur ,eg, with Thornton's 2-bath.

Thanx Alan, but this Thornton formula has Metol/Hydroquinone in it, that was my reason for going around D-76...

I also once attempted to make a divided ascorbate-phenidone developer, with no success. I think there is something particular about metol (or possibly hydroquinone) that lends itself particularly well to use in a divided developer.

The problem was most likely caused by the first bath being way too acidic for development to take place. Ascorbic acid is a very good reducing agent, but it needs an alkaline environment AND another reducing agent like phenidone or metol to successfully develop film.

As an experiment, why not try converting the ascorbic acid to sodium ascorbate by combining it with sodium bicarbonate in water prior to adding it to Solution A. Try Googling "Patrick Gainer" + "sodium ascorbate" to find out how much sodium bicarbonate to add to the ascorbic acid to neutralize the acidity.

If you decide to try this, post back and let us know how it worked.

Mike

Jordan said:

I also once attempted to make a divided ascorbate-phenidone developer, with no success. I think there is something particular about metol (or possibly hydroquinone) that lends itself particularly well to use in a divided developer.

Click to expand...

Did you use ascobic acid or sodium ascorbate?

Mike

Jordan said:

I also once attempted to make a divided ascorbate-phenidone developer, with no success. I think there is something particular about metol (or possibly hydroquinone) that lends itself particularly well to use in a divided developer.

Click to expand...

It is not necessary to use metol in a two bath developer. Phenidone is used in several formulas. Paul Farber published two in the magazine Travel and Camera (now defunct).

Ryuji Suzuki makes the point on his website that the simularity between hydroquinone and ascorbic acid is only superficial. On this basis one would not expect to be able do a simple substitution.

Designing a developer is not a simple task and it requires knowledge in several fields. There were a couple of articles in Photo Techniques by the two inventors of Xtol detailing their work. It took them a full year before they came up with a preliminary formula that could be presented to Kodak.

There's not supposed to be any development taking place in the first bath.

The issue is that there's not any significant additivity taking place when the film's placed in the second bath and Phenidone works weakly on it's own unlike Metol.

Ian

Zathras said:

The problem was most likely caused by the first bath being way too acidic for development to take place. Ascorbic acid is a very good reducing agent, but it needs an alkaline environment AND another reducing agent like phenidone or metol to successfully develop film.

As an experiment, why not try converting the ascorbic acid to sodium ascorbate by combining it with sodium bicarbonate in water prior to adding it to Solution A. Try Googling "Patrick Gainer" + "sodium ascorbate" to find out how much sodium bicarbonate to add to the ascorbic acid to neutralize the acidity.

If you decide to try this, post back and let us know bhow it worked.

Mike

Click to expand...

A couple of years ago I had trouble with Tri-X in divided developers, so I stopped trying with it. I could be something about the film, or it could be something else. In any case, you need a point of comparison when compounding a new developer. Develop test rolls in both your formula and in the Vestal formula and compare the results. If possible, also compare them with D-76 and E-76.

leicam5 said:

Film: Tri-X 400/120 @ 400 ASA
Processing : all @ 20°C; pre wet +/-5 min, Part A 4 min, Part B 10 min (no intermitted rinsing) then stop, fix and wash the normal way.
The results where catastrophic there was a very faint image, only the highlights came slightly trough, useless to print.
So, can somebody tell me what I did wrong?
Thanx!

Click to expand...

Isn't presoaking the culprit?
I remember reading somewhere not to presoak for 2 bath developers. This makes sense because water is already in the emulsion and no room for Part A.

Zathras said:

The problem was most likely caused by the first bath being way too acidic for development to take place. Ascorbic acid is a very good reducing agent, but it needs an alkaline environment AND another reducing agent like phenidone or metol to successfully develop film.

Click to expand...

As Ian mentioned, divided developers are usually formulated such that minimal or zero development takes place in Bath A. The pH of these baths is usually neutral to slightly acidic. Having an alkaline Bath A in which extensive development takes place defeats the purpose of using a divided developer.

Gerald C Koch said:

Ryuji Suzuki makes the point on his website that the simularity between hydroquinone and ascorbic acid is only superficial. On this basis one would not expect to be able do a simple substitution.

Click to expand...

I'm well aware of this Jerry. The issue the OP has is not one of substitution, but of trying to take a well-known single-bath developer and turn it into a two-bath developer. With a bit of fiddling this can be accomplished pretty easily for M or MQ developers like D76, D23, etc. Not so for ascorbate developers.

Two-bath developers rely on the ability of the emulsion to swell and absorb developing agent in a neutral to slightly acidic Bath A, which is then activated in the alkaline Bath B. If no developing agent is absorbed, the film will end up un- or under-developed, as the OP observed. Absorption into the emulsion depends on pH, ionic strength, and chemical structure. I know of no two-bath developer that does not contain either metol or hydroquinone (or maybe catechol or pyrogallol), which is why I suspect that these developing agents are somehow "privileged" in their ability to be absorbed into emulsions. They are all phenolic type developers (as opposed to phenidone and ascorbic acid) but beyond this, I don't know the nature of the structure-property relationship.

leicam5 said:

Part A -> 1 lit
Phenidone: 20 cc 1% solution
Sodium sulfite: 50 gr.
Ascorbic Acid: 8 gr.

Part B -> 1 lit
Sodium sulfite: 50 gr.
Borax: 12 gr.

Click to expand...

change Part B to next solution:
Sodium Sulfite 30g
TEA 30g
Water 1lt

why? because (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

other solution - replace Ascorbic Acid with Sodium Ascorbate. simple mix Part A as follow:

Part A -> 1 lit
Phenidone: 20 cc 1% solution
Sodium sulfite: 50 gr.
Ascorbic Acid: 8 gr.
Sodium carbonate: 2.4 gr
Sodium Metabisulfite: 5 gr

2.4g of Sodium Carbonate + 8g of Ascorbic Acid produre 9g of Sodium Ascorbate.
Sodium Metabisulfite required (see Diafine formula) because otherwise development started in bath A