Dissolving powdered developer in glycol?

jackc · Mar 5, 2008

I found a local source for propylene glycol. Does any one have experience dissolving powered developer in it? I'm having xtol in mind. Since it comes in such large packet, it would be nice if dissolving it in propylene glycol instead of hot water can make the stock last much longer. I know the staining developer Pyrocat-HD comes in two ways, one in water and one in glycol. I read the glycol version can last for years.

Thanks
j

fhovie · Mar 5, 2008

Microwave it to 250F and add your chemistry one at a time with a magnetic stirrer

jackc · Mar 6, 2008

Magnetic stirer?

What's magnetic stirer? What does it do special?

gainer · Mar 6, 2008

Not all of the parts of XTOL will dissolve in glycol. There are in fact parts of each packet that will not dissolve in glycol. If you want the long life of the glycol stock, look up Jordan Wosnick's posts about Mytol Quick.

Jordan · Mar 6, 2008

Pat -- "Instant MYTOL" actually.

Powdered XTOL, along with most other powder developers, is probably over 80% sodium sulfite by weight, and sodium sulfite does not dissolve to an appreciable extent in propylene or ethylene glycol.

Photo Engineer · Mar 6, 2008

Most of you don't realize how hot 250 F is. That is nearly 40 degrees F hotter than boiling water and any splash or spill will be instant injury, especially if there is a chemical dissolved in the glycol.

Please be careful, as this is dangerous stuff. Ascorbic acid in PG or EG is a dangerous thing at 250F. And, EG is a poison to boot. Dont inhale any of the fumes. If you can, use PG insted of EG.

PE

jackc · Mar 6, 2008

hot glycol

Thanks for the warning. Very kind. I did some browsing and found remarks about propylene glycol (PG) saying that when heated that hot it can produce a toxic and combustible fume. Sounds like very dangerous stuff for the average person.

But it's a disappointment that powdered developers don't go in PG. The ingredients of Ilford DDX obviously do go in, as DDX is a concentrate in PG (or so I read.) What are the chemicals in DDX? May be we can make our own DDX with PG. BTW, I found PG locally for $7 a gallon.

Photo Engineer · Mar 6, 2008

Well, then ingredients in HC-110 do dissolve in PG and other ingredients, so Kodak does know how to do it. It is the choice of ingredients and developer type that determines what can be made, a powder or a liquid (syrup). I just formulated a Dektol equivalent into a syrup with special ingredients so I know what can be done and how to do it. You can make a concentrate that is stable by mixing at just slightly above room temperature. You don't need that high temperature.

PE

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 7, 2008

jackc said:
Thanks for the warning. Very kind. I did some browsing and found remarks about propylene glycol (PG) saying that when heated that hot it can produce a toxic and combustible fume. Sounds like very dangerous stuff for the average person.

But it's a disappointment that powdered developers don't go in PG. The ingredients of Ilford DDX obviously do go in, as DDX is a concentrate in PG (or so I read.) What are the chemicals in DDX? May be we can make our own DDX with PG. BTW, I found PG locally for $7 a gallon.

When I mix photo chemistry with glycol as the solvent, I use warm 100F - 120F glycol. I use a water bath to warm the glycol.

Here is link for the DDX MSDS. http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/ilford/b&w/DD-X.PDF

I expect that the DDX chemicals which would be difficult to dissolve in glycol are:
Potassium Sulfite
Sodium Tetraborate
Boric Acid

All 3 of these chemicals are water soluble.

gainer · Mar 7, 2008

Of course my comment was not meant to say that a working equivalent of XTOL could not be put up in an organic solvent. It's just that the ingredients of packaged XTOL powder won't all dissolve in glycol or di- or triethanolamine. You could dissolve dimezone or phenidone, ascorbic acid or isoascorbic acid, use triethanolamine as alkali, and temper the pH if necessary with propylene glycol. This leaves sulfite out, but for many uses it is not necessary, and in any case it can be added at time of dilution. You could as well use only PG as solvent in the stock and keep a second stock of sulfite and metaborate in water solution. This water solution will have a reasonably long shelf life.

gainer · Mar 7, 2008

I should have pointed out that HC-110 contains an organic sulfite complex. It is a PQ developer. Without some sulfite, the superadditivity between the P and the Q does not work. The synergism between P and C does not require sulfite to make it work, so XTOL would be an active developer without sulfite. Sulfite has other effects and may be required even in a PC developer to satisfy grain-sniffers.

Murray Kelly · Mar 8, 2008

Well, there you go. After following multiple threads on APUG I missed that point.
I was unaware that P & Q were superadditive. Back to the drawing boards.

Murray

Dissolving powdered developer in glycol?

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