Whatever the heck happened to being allowed not to like something anymore? It's not permitted? Sorry - I didn't get the handout. Neither Sally Mann's kid photos - nor Mr. Sturges' stuff really do anything for me. The common thread is that they both seem far too 'personal' for me to enter into a dialogue with. Both, of course, in different ways.
I don't care whether or not you like her work but when you dismiss her work as "snapshots" those of us that appreciate her work as far more than that, might wish to examine that dismissal.
But they're too emotionally close - (mann i mean) to be art.
Thanks for piping in, Suzanne - well, not so much that you concur with me (if only a bit) re: sturges... though I think it would be great to have some female feedback on sturges also. Let me ask you... do you feel the women's bodies represented in sturges' work are in anyway 'sexualized'? I think they are very much about voyeurism and taboo. But hey -that's me.
Sturges, it seems to me, is about the physical... both his subjects and his prints. He's making beautiful photographs of drop dead beautiful women, crafting drop dead gorgeous prints, but it's all about a physical surface that the viewer will desire... to touch it and feel it physically. Ultimately, I find the work shallow, and once you get past the physical beauty...well, there's not much else there, really.
J - I KNOW that my oblique commentary on your exchange with another isn't really my business.... but I'm wondering why you care whether or not someone dismisses them as such. And - are there other artists with whom you might not have the same reaction, but who you admire equally?
Seems to be a rather touchy subject so I'll try to tread lightly ;-)
If Sally Mann is a diarist, are there many diaries (visual or written) that are works of art? I'd suggest that the genre is of more interest to historians, sociologists, biographers, etc. than to readers of literature or viewers of porfolios. There are many images of humans that achieve an emotional response, eg some images by photojournalists; but I may decide to not put them in a frame & hang them on my wall. And that is my criteria for judging whether an image is a fine art print, but thats just my viewpoint.
Seems to be a rather touchy subject so I'll try to tread lightly ;-)
If Sally Mann is a diarist, are there many diaries (visual or written) that are works of art? I'd suggest that the genre is of more interest to historians, sociologists, biographers, etc. than to readers of literature or viewers of porfolios. There are many images of humans that achieve an emotional response, eg some images by photojournalists; but I may decide to not put them in a frame & hang them on my wall. And that is my criteria for judging whether an image is a fine art print, but thats just my viewpoint.
...to drag out poor Jock Sturges and use the combined stacked soapboxes as a pulpit...
It's only art if you'd want it on your wall?
Sparky (given that your little nonsequitur about closeness vs art is one of the most corrosive things I've ever seen stated on APUG), is there any portraitist of note who you like? And if you say Karsh or any others of the Southworth & Hawes mode, tell me why their portraits are worthwhile, because the only ones of those I've ever really enjoyed are the ones where personality and emotional immediacy overwhelm the stiff formula.
I'd be happy to have many of the images by Mann, Gowin & Sturges on my wall and feel they deserve to be framed! I hope it would make people that viewed them think of the content and consider their response to the images in relation to their own backgrounds, values etc - but also as images of the highest quality per se!
Mann, I think, digs deeper into the inner world of her children and family, and there's just more "there" in her photographs. And Doug, perhaps she is a diarist... "Immediate Family" is certainly autobiographical, but she's not really employing the "snapshot" aesthetic described in the piece. Her photographs are very deliberate, where I think the snapshot aesthetic strives to be deliberately haphazard. Good read, btw, thanks for the link, Doug.
I dunno. Look at the thread title. Discussing Sally Mann is what we're doing. Facile dismissals get tossed around...participation in the discussion would seem to involve examining those dismissals.
Sort of, yes. There's public art -- I wouldn't necessarily want to live with Guernica or much Bosch -- and there's private art, which yes, I would like on my wall, if only I had enough/big enough walls (Alma-Tadema being a prize example).
Cheers,
R.
Bosch, there you go...perfect. I sure as hell don't want it on my wall and it sure as hell is art.
Oh, I think it would be a hoot to have "Garden of Earthly Delights" hanging on the dining room wall. Especially when you had company over who you really didn't want to stay long.
What you wrote:How do you mean that björke? Why do you construe it as 'corrosive'?
Which was quoted out of context (why I said "non sequitur"). Still -- the idea that closeness disqualifies art is imo a horrible sentiment. What distinguishes art from craftsmanship (don't forget, we're discussing images here that are clearly being received as "art"), at least since the 1800's, is the idea of the artist's personal internal emotions, discoveries and realizations finding external outlet. There is no "too close."But they're too emotionally close - (mann i mean) to be art. For me. It's impossible to distance the author from the subject enough.
Light on the surface is ultimately all you get. The photographer needs to confront this fact when making pictures, whether through direct action of the power of chance. Whatever your greater purpose, you own it to the work itself to do whatever you can, whether it's Mann's watery idylls or even journalism (Natchwey: "I need to make pictures that are eloquent")...the photographer absolutely dominates the subject into submission.
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