Discontinued Paper vs Discontinued Film

I know that many now discontinued films are high value items, highly sought-after and selling for sometimes eye-watering prices. The ones that immediately come to mind are Kodak Techpan, HEI and EIR infrared films, along with Kodachrome in its various speeds and formats no longer manufactured (odd that all the ones I can think of are manufactured by Kodak).

My question is whether the same thing happens to old photo papers? Given the rise of resin-coated and variable contrast papers, and the decline in popularity of fibre-based, graded, and contact papers (plus the complete collapse of AGFA) that this led to, are there people who spend massive amounts to get hold of no-longer available paper stocks, perhaps because they tone particularly well or they adore some other characteristic of the paper?

Thanks in advance.

PS I remember reading about some photographer who quit altogether when commercial platinum/palladium paper was discontinued in the 50s. Is this story true?

My question is whether the same thing happens to old photo papers?

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Silver gelatin papers have been discontinued for decades, long before the digital revolution of photography.

PS I remember reading about some photographer who quit altogether when commercial platinum/palladium paper was discontinued in the 50s. I s this story true?

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No. Your decades are way off.

Silver gelatin papers have been discontinued for decades, long before the digital revolution of photography.

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I'm aware of this, but I was under the impression that it wasn't until the 80s that RC & VC papers began to overtake traditional graded fibre papers in popularity, and that both fibre and single-graded papers had been on the decline since. For example, according to Ilford's website, although Galerie FB was available in grades 1-4 glossy, and 1-3 matte at least as recently as 2002, now it is available only in grades 2 & 3 with glossy surface (I know this is a recent example, but there must be others).

What I meant was, since, as you say, papers have been being discontinued since the beginning of commercial paper manufacturing, are there those who try to amass "stockpiles" of old papers, the same way some people have freezers filled with old films they are particularly fond of?

Hal said:

I'm aware of this, but I was under the impression that it wasn't until the 80s that RC & VC papers began to overtake traditional graded fibre papers in popularity, and that both fibre and single-graded papers had been on the decline since. For example, according to Ilford's website, although Galerie FB was available in grades 1-4 glossy, and 1-3 matte at least as recently as 2002, now it is available only in grades 2 & 3 with glossy surface (I know this is a recent example, but there must be others).

What I meant was, since, as you say, papers have been being discontinued since the beginning of commercial paper manufacturing, are there those who try to amass "stockpiles" of old papers, the same way some people have freezers filled with old films they are particularly fond of?

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RC was more widely used commercially and diminished the demand for fiber based papers except for the fine art printers.

I use RC for contact printing only. Fiber always for enlargements except when someone gives me a batch of paper and it includes large sheets of RC.

Yes people stock pile their favorite papers because of the frequent discontinuance of their favorite paper(s). David Plowden for example has thousands of sheets of Seagull salted away in several freezers. However, his biggest problem these days is finding an assistant that can help print his work. I'd guess when he passes to the other side, there will still be a lot of paper left in the freezer. My guess is his estate will use it to print more work as the demand arises (assuming Plowden allows that in his will.)

But why speculate or ponder about all of this? We have to work with what remains.

palladio paper was made through the 1980s, it was a pt/pd paper

Paul Strand used to comment that as soon as he found a paper he liked it was discontinued...and that was already back in the 30;s and 40's!!
Best, Peter

donbga said:

But why speculate or ponder about all of this? We have to work with what remains.

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Two points of good-natured (I promise, Don!) contention: 1) Speculation is the fuel of life; and 2) you may choose to work with what remains, but you do not have to. Nothing is easier to make than your own superb quality silver gelatin printing paper. Cheaper, too, and always within your control.

d

dwross said:

Two points of good-natured (I promise, Don!) contention: 1) Speculation is the fuel of life; and 2) you may choose to work with what remains, but you do not have to. Nothing is easier to make than your own superb quality silver gelatin printing paper. Cheaper, too, and always within your control.

d

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Denise,

As good as one could be making their own silver gelatin emulsions, I don't find that option heart warming for me. If you are happy with those emulsion making options that's great. But for some it's not an option. Personally for me, I prefer a factory made gelatin silver paper. I don't think I'm wrong to say that recreating ones favorite emulsion from decades ago is virtually impossible today for the amateur. If it's so easy, cheap, and simple why aren't more people undertaking the task?

I have no idea what you mean by "Speculation is the fuel of life".

donbga said:

I have no idea what you mean by "Speculation is the fuel of life".

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Hi Don,

I suppose one could go back in evolution and eavesdrop on a couple of genes speculating about whether it was better for their avatar to grow a seed-crunching beak or a nectar-sipping one, but I mean something far more recent. I imagine some charbroiled meat-loving caveman speculating about a better idea for a grill party than waiting to stumble across a lightening-struck wildebeest. Or, better yet, the hundreds of different speculations over time that eventually led to my modern bathroom with its hot shower and flush toilet. I hope to high heaven someone is trying to speculate us out of our dependence on oil.

As for making your own silver gelatin paper, let's look at your observation: "I don't think I'm wrong to say that recreating ones favorite emulsion from decades ago is virtually impossible today for the amateur." Actually, it's nothing of the kind, at least not for a great majority of the historical papers. Why would you say that? To my knowledge you haven't been doing emulsion research. I suspect you've been listening to the propaganda coming from individuals who stand to profit from the sale of liquid emulsion, or books and DVD's. It's been the same story since the discovery of gelatin dry plates. Get the technology out of the hands of 'amateurs'. Create an un-empowered consumer, pretty much a hapless victim to market forces and the corporate bottom line. Unfortunately, the propaganda sticks. That's the answer to your question, "If it's so easy, cheap, and simple why aren't more people undertaking the task?"

d
www.thelightfarm.com

I suppose one could go back in evolution and eavesdrop on a couple of genes speculating about whether it was better for their avatar to grow a seed-crunching beak or a nectar-sipping one, but I mean something far more recent. I imagine some charbroiled meat-loving caveman speculating about a better idea for a grill party than waiting to stumble across a lightening-struck wildebeest. Or, better yet, the hundreds of different speculations over time that eventually led to my modern bathroom with its hot shower and flush toilet. I hope to high heaven someone is trying to speculate us out of our dependence on oil.

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Sounds like you may have been a futures trader once! Sorry but I still don't 'Grok' the relevance of your comment. But let's move along I don't think it's important that I do.

As for making your own silver gelatin paper, let's look at your observation: "I don't think I'm wrong to say that recreating ones favorite emulsion from decades ago is virtually impossible today for the amateur." Actually, it's nothing of the kind, at least not for a great majority of the historical papers.

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Oh really, how about whipping out some of those cadmium laced papers coated on some nice baryta paper like we used to have, like good old Ilford Multigrade III or Gallarie (the real Gallerie) or some of the great Kodak Ektalure in G surface.

Why would you say that? To my knowledge you haven't been doing emulsion research.

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I have not, nor am I going to.

I suspect you've been listening to the propaganda coming from individuals who stand to profit from the sale of liquid emulsion, or books and DVD's. It's been the same story since the discovery of gelatin dry plates. Get the technology out of the hands of 'amateurs'. Create an un-empowered consumer, pretty much a hapless victim to market forces and the corporate bottom line. Unfortunately, the propaganda sticks. That's the answer to your question, "If it's so easy, cheap, and simple why aren't more people undertaking the task?"

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Oh please stop with the anti-corporation stuff. Corporations do what they do to make money (unless the government forces them to do otherwise.) I'm more concerned with the power of the government unempowering me.

But I've never listened to or read anything about liquid emulsion, one way or another.

Finally let me clarify, I've got nothing against anyone doing what you do. But making gelatin silver paper at home will never be the same (for me) as pulling a manufactured sheet from the box and making my next exposure.

I've accepted that and chose to move along. Frederick Evans choose to give up photography when the production of platinum coated paper ceased. I'm not going to quit photography because my favorite gelatin silver paper isn't produced any longer. That happened when Ilford MGIII left us.

Anyway good luck to you and anyone else who wants to roll their own. I coat my own alt. process papers so I can relate. But making my own gelatin silver paper ain't for me.

As far as I'm concerned, a discontinued paper or film is basically useless. Like I'm really going to be starting a project with 5 rolls of film or 25 sheets of paper I get off the internet?

ic-racer said:

As far as I'm concerned, a discontinued paper or film is basically useless. Like I'm really going to be starting a project with 5 rolls of film or 25 sheets of paper I get off the internet?

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That's why I only buy old film or paper if I can get *piles* of it (Cheaply, of course.)

Duncan