Discontinuation of FP100C

mooseontheloose · Mar 1, 2016

Theo Sulphate said:
Why?
Would that be embarrassing, a matter of pride, or a feeling that they've made a final decision and they just want the outcome they want.

Yes to all of the above.

And if you look at a company like Impossible, they had people from the factory help to create the new product (which is still going through growing pains after many years of work, despite the betterment of the 2.0 film). If someone was going to keep the Fuji equipment going (assuming its still even around), wouldn't they need people from Fuji? Who would quit their company job for such a tenuous career outlook? Besides, would that even be possible (as Fujifilm is a company still going strong, whereas (the film division) of Polaroid isn't) - I imagine there would be some trademark/copyright/patent issues that Fuji would want to protect, even if they never produce film again (which is not limited to Fuji by a long shot). Which would probably mean starting production from scratch. Again, look at how long the IP has been struggling to get their film right. And yet, many people buy their expensive film (myself included) - why? Polaroid was a beloved brand that was very ingrained in our culture over decades, and their films had a recognizable look even to those outside the film community. Can we say the same about Fuji instant products that are not instax?

AgX · Mar 1, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
And if you look at a company like Impossible, they had people from the factory help to create the new product (which is still going through growing pains after many years of work, despite the betterment of the 2.0 film).

The initial and decisive input of knowledge came from outside as inside the factory one was completele clueless and lacking vision.

skorpiius · Mar 1, 2016

So frustrating.
If there was a 'pro' instax camera I might not be so annoyed.

Diapositivo · Mar 1, 2016

We should get accustomed to the discontinuation of a product and hope for a better future.
I think the Film Ferrania story is very instructive. Who would have said, a few years ago, that Ferrania would be producing film again?
Somebody (may God give them long and happy lives) thought about preserving the heritage: the machinery, the recipes, the documentation. That was extremely, exceedingly important. And now that the all the capital accumulated in the past decades is not lost, slide film in Ferranialand can be born again.

So the lesson to learn about this is: let's plan for the future. Let's not just complain, or claim boycotting Fuji, or hoard. Let's ask ourselves what can be saved of this technology so that, in some years time, maybe even ten years, when film hopefully comes back to be a substantial photography staple, it can be revived without reinventing it anew.

I'm not worried about this product anymore. Momentarily, it's gone. I'm worried about the future. Is it possible to salvage machinery, documentation, know-how so that in a few years time Fuji themselves, or somebody else (Film Fujifilm) will be able to undertake production again?

I knew just a few days ago of the Film Ferrania story and I was sad I could not participate in this beautiful, heroic, historic, wonderful effort.

Let's hope something similar can be developed for this technology and let's be prepared to support it.

TheToadMen · Mar 1, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
I certainly don't understand Fujifilm as a company, but I do have some thoughts concerning Japan Inc., which maybe I should keep to myself.

Japan is a complicated place and its hard to sum up all the issues, but here are a few generalizations and over-simplifications, if I may:

...

Thank you for this beautiful insight.

Poisson Du Jour · Mar 1, 2016

From The Age today, here in Melbourne/Australia, a word from Fujifilm's boss Downunder:

Film photography will never disappear entirely, but demand remains niche, according to manager of professional products for Fujifilm in Australia, Kevin Cooper.
"[But] I think the downward spiral has certainly slowed or bottomed out," he says. Fujifilm will "always maintain that tradition and heritage of film", and recently brought out a digital camera that looks analog and can shoot in different film styles, he adds.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/f...a-comeback-20160225-gn3edc.html#ixzz41h4V9tt6

Ken Nadvornick · Mar 1, 2016

Diapositivo said:
I knew just a few days ago of the Film Ferrania story and I was sad I could not participate in this beautiful, heroic, historic, wonderful effort.

Oh but you will be able to participate. Just purchase some of their new products when they reach the market. That will be the most beautiful participating effort possible.

Go Ferrania. Go Italia.

Ken

Theo Sulphate · Mar 1, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
From The Age today, here in Melbourne/Australia, a word from Fujifilm's boss Downunder:

... Fujifilm will "always maintain that tradition and heritage of film", and recently brought out a digital camera that looks analog and can shoot in different film styles, he adds.

Even as an X-Pro1 owner, that statement makes me cringe. It's like those people who have a robot pet and think it's close to having a real pet.

Roger Cole · Mar 1, 2016

Lee Rust said:
The peel-apart film has been very enjoyable and I will miss using my Polaroid cameras and film backs. Of course, the extra paper bits and wet stuff are always troublesome to deal with, even though I save most of the the negatives. It's easy to see why Fuji is consolidating their instant photo efforts into Instax, which is an excellent product (with a process invented by Kodak). The Instax image starts emerging immediately and there's no muss, fuss and delay in an age when instant gratification is expected. In my opinion, the Instax prints are superior to FP100c in terms of color rendition and sharpness, and they can be copied and enlarged with good results.

Hopefully some higher grade cameras and/or film backs will emerge from Fuji or others. To me, the most annoying thing about Instax cameras (and integral Polaroids) is the noisy ejection of the film just after each exposure. With peel-apart film, the leisurely extraction, waiting and peeling were part of the experience and increased the appreciation of each print as it was revealed. The Impossible film images are so slow to emerge and unpredictable in nature that they still encourage that sort of anticipation and examination, while the Instax prints are SO instant and consistent that they tend to get laid aside and forgotten after a few minutes, just as if they were cellphone images.

Interesting observation about Instax, to someone like me who has never used it or even seen it. But yes, the lack of a pro level camera, and more specifically the ability to use it in backs that fit our already-owned conventional pro level cameras, is the huge thing. No matter how good the film is, as long as it only works in what amount to low end consumer cameras, it's not of much use to many of us here.

mooseontheloose said:
And from JapanCameraHunter:

When I first started this business about 5 years ago, Fuji FP-100 and the variants of such were reasonably popular, but professionals were no longer asking for it. I had been working for a large photo supply company and we were told (unofficially) back in 2011 that peel apart film was to stop production in the near future, so any orders we wanted of it would have to be done immediately.
But then something strange happened. FP-100 all of a sudden became extremely popular…The internet and sites such as mine raised the public awareness of said film and the sales increased to the point that over the last couple of years they have not been able to keep it on the shelves in Japan, despite the prices. In fact, over the last year it has been hard to get here because as soon as it hits the shelves it is purchased in huge amounts by Chinese buyers who have flocked to the peel apart market. Fuji simply could not get it on the shelves fast enough. It got to the point that serious bulk buyers had orders cancelled or were not allowed to order such amounts as it was considered unfair to other customers.
So here is where we see what has really happened. It is now clear that FujiFilm had already ceased the production of the film back as early as 2012 and has basically spent the last few years selling off the stock they had. Way to go Fuji(not)Film.

Well if it got that popular again you'd think they'd reconsider. But that's American business thinking, maybe not Japanese.

bvy said:
Get it while it's there and be happy. Pretty soon it will be available for no number of dollars.

Don't bet on that. FP-3000b has been discontinued for a couple of years and still readily available, albeit at more than $30 a pack. Too dear for my blood but you can buy it if you want it badly enough.

skorpiius said:
So frustrating.
If there was a 'pro' instax camera I might not be so annoyed.

'Zactly.

Of course you can't recover the negative from Instax, and it's limited to an even smaller size.

Ken Nadvornick said:
Oh but you will be able to participate. Just purchase some of their new products when they reach the market. That will be the most beautiful participating effort possible.

Go Ferrania. Go Italia.

Ken

This, so this.

Were it not for the fact they are the sole remaining supplier of E6 film I could do quite nicely without Fuji at all. Acros is an excellent and unique film; nothing else has quite its spectral response or its lack of reciprocity failure. But still, I shoot little of it (no real reason, I just like Ilford I guess) and could live happily without it. If Ferrania comes out with a good E6 product at even reasonably competitive price I'll likely be done with Fuji. Of course at this rate Fuji may be done with me before then.

1L6E6VHF · Mar 1, 2016

mehguy said:
B&H just upped the price today for FP100C. It's now 13 dollars .

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...35626_FP_100C_Professional_Instant_Color.html

And Adorama upped it overnight to $16.95!

I was going to order 6 packs at $10.95, but, when I saw the price jump to $12.95, I only ordered 4 packs instead (truth be known, even that may prove to be a more-than-lifetime supply in my case).

Real bummer. While stereo chrome gives me my most impressive images, regular chrome great images that can be easily stored, and viewed in a relaxing show, and d*****l cameras best for playing with lenses, lighting, low light and distant subjects, my favorite way to just take pictures has always been pull-tab instant.

mooseontheloose · Mar 2, 2016

1L6E6VHF said:
And Adorama upped it overnight to $16.95!

It's currently selling for about $23 a pack here in Japan.

NJH · Mar 2, 2016

Theo Sulphate said:
Even as an X-Pro1 owner, that statement makes me cringe. It's like those people who have a robot pet and think it's close to having a real pet.

Same here. The much vaunted Velvia mode when those cameras came out being a case in point, looks nothing like Velvia or much like any Fuji slide film for that matter just a lurid over saturated digital jpeg. Odd that their most successful modes were the B&W ones IMHO, given how people always talk about digital and colour.

Soeren · Mar 2, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
Yes to all of the above.

And if you look at a company like Impossible, they had people from the factory help to create the new product (which is still going through growing pains after many years of work, despite the betterment of the 2.0 film). If someone was going to keep the Fuji equipment going (assuming its still even around), wouldn't they need people from Fuji? Who would quit their company job for such a tenuous career outlook? Besides, would that even be possible (as Fujifilm is a company still going strong, whereas (the film division) of Polaroid isn't) - I imagine there would be some trademark/copyright/patent issues that Fuji would want to protect, even if they never produce film again (which is not limited to Fuji by a long shot). Which would probably mean starting production from scratch. Again, look at how long the IP has been struggling to get their film right. And yet, many people buy their expensive film (myself included) - why? Polaroid was a beloved brand that was very ingrained in our culture over decades, and their films had a recognizable look even to those outside the film community. Can we say the same about Fuji instant products that are not instax?

"who would quit their job...?" well I would think " The ones who got laid off because their production lines closed down"

DarkMagic · Mar 2, 2016

Off course Fuji is willing so sell the machinery. For them its dead capital now. They sold an entire factory in the Netherlands. http://petapixel.com/2015/01/05/fuj...ajor-film-factories-europe-heres-look-inside/ but, as far as i know; peel apart is made inside a factory complex in Japan. So its more likely Fuji is selling the peel apart machinery they cant use further as scrap metal. cash in quick. Factory space is then free for other operations. Keeping that machine park in a hope of some geeks gather money to buy it as working machinery, is just naive and stupid.

Darko Pozar · Mar 2, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
Yes to all of the above.

And if you look at a company like Impossible, they had people from the factory help to create the new product (which is still going through growing pains after many years of work, despite the betterment of the 2.0 film). If someone was going to keep the Fuji equipment going (assuming its still even around), wouldn't they need people from Fuji? Who would quit their company job for such a tenuous career outlook? Besides, would that even be possible (as Fujifilm is a company still going strong, whereas (the film division) of Polaroid isn't) - I imagine there would be some trademark/copyright/patent issues that Fuji would want to protect, even if they never produce film again (which is not limited to Fuji by a long shot). Which would probably mean starting production from scratch. Again, look at how long the IP has been struggling to get their film right. And yet, many people buy their expensive film (myself included) - why? Polaroid was a beloved brand that was very ingrained in our culture over decades, and their films had a recognizable look even to those outside the film community. Can we say the same about Fuji instant products that are not instax?

Reminds me of years ago when Cuba was looking into nuclear power stations and utilising old Soviet scientists out of retirement to instigate a very dangerous development of obsolete technology which would be a threat to the States if something went wrong?

Polaroid missed the boat by not keeping up with the changing trends of digital medium, standing their ground with Polaroid medium, then they realised it was too late...

mooseontheloose · Mar 2, 2016

Soeren said:
"who would quit their job...?" well I would think " The ones who got laid off because their production lines closed down"

I doubt they'll be laid off - probably will be just reabsorbed into the Fujifilm system somewhere. Maybe to produce facial peels for their cosmetic lines?

Peter de Groot · Mar 2, 2016

Talking about an Instax wide back for your TC. Look at the facebook page of Rezivot. They have exactly that. I think it is a prototype but it looks promising:
https://www.facebook.com/rezivot/?fref=ts

I hope everybody can see this. There is hope for us! :-D

Roger Cole · Mar 2, 2016

I can see it but I can't read it. Google translate renders it into something almost, but not quite, completely unlike English.

I get that they are making or wanting to make a back for Instax film. What I can't figure out is what cameras it will hopefully fit or what if any extra work might be required to convert them etc.

RattyMouse · Mar 2, 2016

DarkMagic said:
Off course Fuji is willing so sell the machinery. For them its dead capital now. They sold an entire factory in the Netherlands. http://petapixel.com/2015/01/05/fuj...ajor-film-factories-europe-heres-look-inside/ but, as far as i know; peel apart is made inside a factory complex in Japan. So its more likely Fuji is selling the peel apart machinery they cant use further as scrap metal. cash in quick. Factory space is then free for other operations. Keeping that machine park in a hope of some geeks gather money to buy it as working machinery, is just naive and stupid.

Is the factory that they sold going to be making film or paper or is it going to be scrapped and used for something totally different?

Diapositivo · Mar 2, 2016

DarkMagic said:
Off course Fuji is willing so sell the machinery. For them its dead capital now. They sold an entire factory in the Netherlands. http://petapixel.com/2015/01/05/fuj...ajor-film-factories-europe-heres-look-inside/ but, as far as i know; peel apart is made inside a factory complex in Japan. So its more likely Fuji is selling the peel apart machinery they cant use further as scrap metal. cash in quick. Factory space is then free for other operations. Keeping that machine park in a hope of some geeks gather money to buy it as working machinery, is just naive and stupid.

Fuji can auction the machines just as they did in the Netherlands or they may mothball the machinery in case they want to resume production one day. Scrapping machinery as metal is the last thing anybody would do.
Besides the machinery, what could be salvaged is the technology, the documents describing it and the people working on it. A machine can be rebuilt, the "know-how" is the real species in danger, I think. Again, there is no reason why Fuji should throw all in the dustbin.

AgX · Mar 2, 2016

RattyMouse said:
Is the factory that they sold going to be making film or paper or is it going to be scrapped and used for something totally different?

Fuji did not sell a factory at all.

They sold the machinery as parts. They would have been of no use for any competitor.

Luckless · Mar 2, 2016

Diapositivo said:
Fuji can auction the machines just as they did in the Netherlands or they may mothball the machinery in case they want to resume production one day. Scrapping machinery as metal is the last thing anybody would do.

Scrapping fabrication machinery is frequently exactly what a business wants to do. I have witnessed the contents of a factory being pulled apart with cutting torches and the bits dragged out of the building with front-end loaders in the name of saving a few weeks of factory turn-around and needing a smaller crew of workers. They 'saved' what they could, anything that had a really strong resale value as more than scrap that wasn't too much bother for them to pull out in one piece, but when it came down to the bottom line the important thing was to get the building cleared, cleaned, and retooled for an entirely different product as soon as possible.

Every day of delay that keeps a factory space from being up and running and producing product is not only a day that there is no income generated from it, but also another day for a competitor's product to hit the market and gain attention. In the time it could take you to find a buyer to sell industrial equipment 'at a fair price', and have it carefully dismantled for easy reuse else where... Well, you could often make a lot more money by dragging stuff out into a parking lot and smashing it with bulldozers to haul off for scrap metal prices, and retool weeks or months sooner.

Diapositivo · Mar 2, 2016

Luckless said:
In the time it could take you to find a buyer to sell industrial equipment 'at a fair price', and have it carefully dismantled for easy reuse else where... Well, you could often make a lot more money by dragging stuff out into a parking lot and smashing it with bulldozers to haul off for scrap metal prices, and retool weeks or months sooner.

I understand this reasoning but one can in principle dismount the machinery, move it somewhere else away from productive site, and auction it. There's a cost involved, naturally. It makes sense if one thinks that the auction can allow to recover more money than the entire sale procedure.

Normally machinery can be adapted to perform a different, but similar job. A film coater e.g. can probably be used to coat some other kind of material.

The case of Ferrania is different from Fuji. Ferrania stopped production and there was no particular hurry to reuse the surface, there probably was a bankruptcy and a judge aiming at recovering all what is recoverable for the creditors. These procedure always take years. And yet, the new buyers arrived "just in time" (years after the bankruptcy) as they say in the video published in the relevant thread, and a few month after the purchase of the machinery begun the "hard scrapping" of what was left of the plant, and the building is now going to be demolished.

I don't know the circumstances at Fuji. Maybe the surface for this production was very small and maybe, in general, Fuji is not going to need it immediately for some other production. It is possible that they can auction all the technology and try to find a buyer. They might want to try to do it, if not for anything else, in order to try to salvage the workplaces. On the other hand, it is not impossible that they want to immediately hire or use the industrial surface for some other purpose.

Let's hope they can transmit, by sale or auction, the technology, or the machinery, to somebody willing to buy it. I would certainly contribute to a "kickstart" project aimed at saving this technology from the Dark Lady.

Peter de Groot · Mar 2, 2016

But you are thinking Fuji wants competition for instant film. Only for that reason they wil not sell anything and rather scrap the whole thing.

Diapositivo · Mar 2, 2016

Peter de Groot said:
But you are thinking Fuji wants competition for instant film. Only for that reason they wil not sell anything and rather scrap the whole thing.

Fuji might also want some transfer of intellectual property and know-how in exchange of some royalties. If the buyer succeeds, Fuji gains without the costs and risks involved. Intellectual property and know-how always have a value. Destroying it is normally not convenient.

If this was the only logic, Fuji would have destroyed this product, to favour Instax, regardless of sales and profit of this product, if the margins for Instax were greater. Maybe that's their logic (monopolist of instant film, having larger margins on Instax, and thinking that peel-apart "eats" into Instax), but maybe it is not.

I don't think Fuji is so shortsighted to behave as an absolute monopolist. On the contrary, a potential renewed success of peel-apart, by another manufacturer, might increase attention toward instant film and benefit instax film as well.

When the analogue offer is so narrow, anybody enlarging it, increasing the choices, might actually help the entire industry. I hope they will reason along the same line. Film Ferrania has just said they are not worried in case Kodak resumed slide film production, and I believe they are sincere. That might "kickstart" slide film consumption to the benefit of Ferrania as well. Then, there always is a niche to occupy.

If a competitor makes new peel-apart film successfully, Fuji can re-enter the market directly, or occupy a different niche, or push the competitor in a different niche quite easily.

Discontinuation of FP100C

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