Dirty Photography

So something is niggling me and I'd really like to get some opinions on it, especially for posting on this forum.

I have just started to shoot with film and once I've developed it, I scan in the negatives, edit in Photoshop and then upload to whatever streams I need to.

My question is this:

What is considered 'unethical digital post production' for film scans? (I've just read the guidelines on Portfolios and it got me worried.)

The scans from my first roll of film lacked so much contrast and generally looked awful, even though the negatives actually look quite well exposed/developed. I shot on Ilford FP4 125 using a Canon EOS 650 35mm camera. I developed using Ilford DD-x, Ilfostop, Rapid Fixer and Rinse.

In Photoshop I'm duplicating the original layer and setting the blend mode to Soft Light to give it a decent contrast fix. Then adding a little more contrast with a contrast layer, some light dodging & burning (not always), and sometimes a black solid layer with a Soft Light blend mode and adjusting its opacity level.

Am I completely overdoing it? And is this the sort of thing which will have me burned at the stake if I post the images on APUG? (slightly kidding but, not really).

Another question:

If I am overdoing the digital post processing, how do I get images with high contrast? Am I using the wrong film? Should I underexpose? I am a complete beginner with film and I have no plans to give up on it. There is too much I love about it. If anyone can recommend a good book I will gladly go away and read it.

I've attached an example scan and processed image to show you what I'm ranting on about.

Cheers
Jay

You may get a lot more response, as well as some really great ideas on how to improve your images and what is considered ethical if you took this question to those who frequent our sister site, www.dpug.org. There is a great bunch over there who work with hybrid workflows all the time.

As long as the final images are presented as digital post production then I would see no ethical problems. Just be sure to call them what they are. By and large, negative scans, even those with minimal if any post production, would not be appropriate for APUG.

Nice photographs, though. Nonetheless.

I would say that it's OK to do with Photoshop whatever can be done in the darkroom. Changing contrast, cropping, making things lighter or darker here and there.

How do you do that in the darkroom? You can alter contrast by using a higher number filter with your variable contrast paper. You can do that different ways with your negative. If your contrast is consistently not to your liking, then change the development time of your film. Longer development equals more contrast. Shoot some test rolls, and you may have to alter your film speed a little (that is, the ISO setting on your camera or meter). Fortunately, there are a lot of possibilities.

jaydebruyne said:

If anyone can recommend a good book I will gladly go away and read it.

Jay

Click to expand...

Most, if not all, of these are still available on Amazon:

Way Beyond Monochrome, Ralph W. Lambrecht and Chris Woodhouse, 2nd edition 2011
The Amateur Photographer’s Handbook, Aaron Sussman, 8th edition 1979
Black & White Photography - Basic Manual, Henry Horenstein, 2nd edition 1983
Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual, Henry Horenstein, 3rd edition, 2004
Creative Black and White Photography, Les McLean, 2002
The Camera; The Negative; The Print, Ansel Adams, 1995
The Darkroom Cookbook, Stephen Anchell, 3rd edition 2008
Basic Developing, Printing, Enlarging in Black-and-White, Kodak, 1982

And, of course, there's "free":

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/education/lessonPlans/darkroom/fullCourse.shtml

http://www3.telus.net/drkrm/

Christopher Walrath said:

By and large, negative scans, even those with minimal if any post production, would not be appropriate for APUG.

Nice photographs, though. Nonetheless.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, Christopher

So, for it to be completely analogue, does one have to print from a negative and then scan in the print without any adjustments? How can it ever be truly analog if it's on the internet? (Just trying to get my head around it, sorry for the dumb-a** question).

David Brown said:

Most, if not all, of these are still available on Amazon:

Way Beyond Monochrome, Ralph W. Lambrecht and Chris Woodhouse, 2nd edition 2011
The Amateur Photographer’s Handbook, Aaron Sussman, 8th edition 1979
Black & White Photography - Basic Manual, Henry Horenstein, 2nd edition 1983
Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual, Henry Horenstein, 3rd edition, 2004
Creative Black and White Photography, Les McLean, 2002
The Camera; The Negative; The Print, Ansel Adams, 1995
The Darkroom Cookbook, Stephen Anchell, 3rd edition 2008
Basic Developing, Printing, Enlarging in Black-and-White, Kodak, 1982

And, of course, there's "free":

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/education/lessonPlans/darkroom/fullCourse.shtml

http://www3.telus.net/drkrm/

Click to expand...

Wow,

Thank you so much, David.

I will get on the case

Cheers
Jay

We scan silver gelatin prints unless it is for an illustrative purpose, as in a how-to article, etc.

mfohl said:

I would say that it's OK to do with Photoshop whatever can be done in the darkroom. Changing contrast, cropping, making things lighter or darker here and there.

How do you do that in the darkroom? You can alter contrast by using a higher number filter with your variable contrast paper. You can do that different ways with your negative. If your contrast is consistently not to your liking, then change the development time of your film. Longer development equals more contrast. Shoot some test rolls, and you may have to alter your film speed a little (that is, the ISO setting on your camera or meter). Fortunately, there are a lot of possibilities.

Click to expand...

mfohl,

Thanks so much for the tips. I think I'm going to get to grips with shooting on film and developing before I start printing. Maybe that's naive? Is it beneficial to print and learn that as I learn to shoot on film? What would you recommend to a beginner? I have a darkroom. I have film development equipment and my camera. I'd only need some trays, paper chemicals and an enlarger I guess.

Scan a negative or print to show what the question is about.

Basic digital questions for alternative photography [example: film-scan-print] are usually acceptable. More advanced questions should be posted on DPUG.org

Digital photographs of equipment for sale are acceptable.

(one moment on this first portion) If you are on the precipice, why wait? Jump on in. I did not learn everything together. You may make some startling parallels in learning everything simultaneously that others do and cannot.

Christopher Walrath said:

By and large, negative scans, even those with minimal if any post production, would not be appropriate for APUG..

Click to expand...

jaydebruyne

THIS IS NOT TRUE.
negative scans ARE permitted on apug. don't let people tell you anything different.
feel free to read threads where the print scan only people argue their best ..
they have tried to change the rules ... but have not been successful.

just don't over do it.

minor PS is permitted, things you would be able to do in the darkroom
minor being levels, contrast, cropping &c ... gymnastics are not permitted
(heavy color alteration, color removal &c )

you have to use your best judgement.

I stand corrected. I have been gone for two years, after all. Thanks for the catch, John. Was not aware.

Christopher Walrath said:

I stand corrected. I have been gone for two years, after all. Thanks for the catch, John. Was not aware.

Click to expand...

no worries chris

negative scans have ALWAYS been accepted, a bone of contention for some, but always accepted.

peace
john

jnanian said:

jaydebruyne

THIS IS NOT TRUE.
negative scans ARE permitted on apug. don't let people tell you anything different.
feel free to read threads where the print scan only people argue their best ..
they have tried to change the rules ... but have not been successful.

just don't over do it.

minor PS is permitted, things you would be able to do in the darkroom
minor being levels, contrast, cropping &c ... gymnastics are not permitted
(heavy color alteration, color removal &c )

you have to use your best judgement.

Click to expand...

Jnanian,

Cheers for that

I'll learn the ropes, I'm sure, by trial and error!

Cheers
Jay

Then what are you waiting for? Get to scanning. But learn the wet stuff too. You won't regret it.

Yes, try out the wet printing stuff - it's even more hands on. Check out this page if there is any darkrooms in your area: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocommunity/darkroom.asp for a start.

Christopher Walrath said:

Then what are you waiting for? Get to scanning. But learn the wet stuff too. You won't regret it.

Click to expand...

Jerevan said:

Yes, try out the wet printing stuff - it's even more hands on. Check out this page if there is any darkrooms in your area: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocommunity/darkroom.asp for a start.

Click to expand...

+1 !

It sounds as if you are asking permission to work one way or another.

Do whatever YOU want. Are you looking for rules to conform to? Would you change your exploration of photography to satisfy a web site or a bunch of other photographers?

Asking qeustions about how to get contrast or technical advise make sense to me, but your techniques permissibility?

trythis,

I'm not asking permission regarding the process I take to create my pictures, I'm asking what is ethical from a point of view from analog photographers on this forum in order to post on this site. I'm new to photography so refining my own style will be a process of trying well known methods.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Yeah, I'm unsure whether the question relates to digital post for APUG or to more general ethics of hybrid photography. The latter, I don't think we can say too much about beyond "you should probably try not to lie to your audience too much".

As John says, negative scans are allowed, but some people feel they're cheating. Speaking purely for myself, I've settled on posting only print scans in the gallery, but being looser in threads.

-NT

trythis said:

It sounds as if you are asking permission to work one way or another.

Do whatever YOU want. Are you looking for rules to conform to? Would you change your exploration of photography to satisfy a web site or a bunch of other photographers?

Asking qeustions about how to get contrast or technical advise make sense to me, but your techniques permissibility?

Click to expand...

the OP is not asking permission
but asking what is permitted to be uploaded to THIS SITE for viewing
in the gallery or portfolios sections of the website.
i think it was great that he asked rather than get the photo uploaded
then all sorts of harsh comments in the gallery
and then the image deleted by "management" \
then a $itstorm of bs afterwards about how people upload "xyz" to the galleries
and now the neighborhood is going downhill " bla bla bla


have fun jaydebruyne
and if you have any questions about photography, this website or even life
( chris has an advice thread ) don't hesitate to ask ..

john

Generally, we've operated on the honor system, and said, whatever you can do with the equipment and skills you have to represent your actual analogue print accurately is OK. Some people can get something that looks more like the print on screen by scanning the neg and adjusting with an analogue print in hand, at least for relatively "straight" prints. For alt-process prints, toned prints, lith prints, and such, the best option is usually to scan or make a digital photograph of the print for the sake of posting it on APUG, since it's mainly about the print effects.

As far as unethical and manipulative post production, if you've got those analogue skills like airbrushing, hand retouching, stripping, and masking, bring it on! APUG exists to preserve the techniques of analogue photography, and if you know how to make Trotsky disappear without using a computer, we want that information on APUG!

jaydebruyne said:

mfohl,

Thanks so much for the tips. I think I'm going to get to grips with shooting on film and developing before I start printing. Maybe that's naive? Is it beneficial to print and learn that as I learn to shoot on film? What would you recommend to a beginner? I have a darkroom. I have film development equipment and my camera. I'd only need some trays, paper chemicals and an enlarger I guess.

Click to expand...

I would suggest that is beneficial to print at the same time as you scan if you ever want to go to wet printing.

For example it is desirable that negatives print on near normal grade of paper using your enlarger type even if you intend to use VC paper.

Especially if you can get a cast off enlarger from some one going to digital for free, trays, safe light, focus aid, meter, etc., be greedy today, tomorrow you may have to pay more.

The digital scans are useful for filing and density analysis to try and get contrast, burn and dodging... near correct first time.

jaydebruyne said:

mfohl,

Thanks so much for the tips. I think I'm going to get to grips with shooting on film and developing before I start printing. Maybe that's naive? Is it beneficial to print and learn that as I learn to shoot on film? What would you recommend to a beginner? I have a darkroom. I have film development equipment and my camera. I'd only need some trays, paper chemicals and an enlarger I guess.

Click to expand...

I think you'll learn more about how to expose and develop film correctly if you're physically using the negatives to create prints. You'll be more motivated to nail the exposure and not blow out the highlights in development if you can't just mask mistakes in PS.

Also, I like the original neg scan below better than the altered one. It's a little flat but could be easily corrected on the enlarger. Maybe a #4 filter for one stop? Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Phil