"Dirt" spots - what to do?

Odot · Nov 27, 2016

See these spots (mid-right) ? I always develop the same way, time, temperature and component-wise and for some reason on some rolls i get these spots and on some i dont. Shouldnt the results all be the same?

I need to know why this is happening because this is really odd. THe spots dont look like they come from the drying environment because a lot of negs from the same roll dont have any spots at all so i wonder if its from developing and what it could be?

I decided to wash longer/more to prevent this from happening but no change.

img482 by odotpap, on Flickr

georgegrosu · Nov 27, 2016

It would be helpful to know what film is and if the defects are seen on film?
Perhaps the negative of the photogram img148 on see some black spots or bright on the sky.
They appear very white in the positive.
Photogram with the bar you can see the shelf 2 and 3 next to the TV is a strange light.
Is a open area and diffusion.
From this direction appears the problem with defects.
There may be some dirt on the window and maybe something else?
Failure from the bar is different from failure img207 or img217.

George

Odot · Nov 27, 2016

georgegrosu said:
It would be helpful to know what film is and if the defects are seen on film?
Perhaps the negative of the photogram img148 on see some black spots or bright on the sky.
They appear very white in the positive.
Photogram with the bar you can see the shelf 2 and 3 next to the TV is a strange light.
Is a open area and diffusion.
From this direction appears the problem with defects.
There may be some dirt on the window and maybe something else?
Failure from the bar is different from failure img207 or img217.

George

Hey George, its a Ilford HP5 plus 400 . the defects can not be seen on the negatives (this is why i dont understand the problem)

as far as the other images, i dont understand what they have to do with this image.

the strange light in the bar is possibly a reflection since i shot it from outside. there was defenitely no dirt on the glass window.

again, the spots, when they appear, they can be seen on a wide range of circumstances (day/night, indoor..outdoor etc)

FujiLove · Nov 27, 2016

Dark spots on the positive suggest clear spots on the negative (I.e. Something akin to pin holes in the emulsion) but you say you can't see anything on the negative under a loupe. Is that correct?

Do you see these spots when you make a print using an enlarger, or are you only scanning these negatives?

Odot · Nov 27, 2016

FujiLove said:
Dark spots on the positive suggest clear spots on the negative (I.e. Something akin to pin holes in the emulsion) but you say you can't see anything on the negative under a loupe. Is that correct?

Do you see these spots when you make a print using an enlarger, or are you only scanning these negatives?

i only scan negatives and dont use a loupe to look for spots. could you please elaborate on that clear spots on the negative? what does that mean?

MattKing · Nov 27, 2016

I would guess that the "dirt" arrives as part of the scanning process. When you see such artifacts, look at the negatives with some sort of magnifier. For marks that are dark on a positive scan to be caused by something in or on the negative, those things in the negative have to be light or clear.

Scanning attracts and magnifies dust like no other thing I know.

EDIT: a moderately fast 50mm lens from a 35mm SLR makes a great magnifier.

georgegrosu · Nov 28, 2016

Without a magnifier you can not analyze the faults on a film.
The magnifier is half of the job.
It is a kind of joke, but is very much indeed.
The magnifier no need to be expensive.
It must have at least 5 cm in diameter and not distort those images at the edges.

George

bdial · Nov 28, 2016

Clear spots in a negative produce black spots in the positive, because there is no density to hold back light when the tones are reversed.
The spots you are dealing with are pretty small on the negative, and are probably hard to recognize without a magnifier.

Generally speaking, spots produced due to dust, or other faults in the scanners optics will move a round if you scan the negative multiple times (changing the position of the negative slightly each time). But, if the faults are in the negative, you'll see them in the same places each time.

Usually dust in the scanner will produce white areas in a positive image though, so it's somewhat more likely that the defects are in your negatives.
In soft emulsion films, acid stop bath can cause pinholes as it reacts with the developer carry over, but it's not common for modern films, Ilford films are not generally prone to that, but you could try a water stop bath to rule it out as a cause. Other causes can be debris in the water used to mix chemicals and in washing. For that the remedy would be using filtered water.

RauschenOderKorn · Nov 28, 2016

Did you develop this film yourself or did you send it to a lab?
I have terrible experience with labs in Germany, quality is sometimes quite bad.

Check your negatives on a light table with a magnifying glass, if the negative is the culprit, you will be able to see small illuminated dots in the dark area of the shelves. If you cannot see anything on the negative, then a scanning forum is the best place to take this problem to.

TSSPro · Nov 28, 2016

I lament the loss of my enlargers, but I have been a hybrid artist for the last few years and can say with certainty that I have seen some weird stuff show up on my negs. Even having done this for a while I've not run across this particular phenomenon with my film and processing. Typically I get pinholes in my sheets and rolls that only show up under extreme digital magnification; in other words, when I 've printed those negs in the wet lab I've never come anywhere close to seeing the same defects in the print, but somehow they look horrible scanned and magnified. This may be a situation like that. I try hard to keep my process measured and repeatable, but discrepancies still happen. I hope that you get it figured out!

Jim Jones · Nov 28, 2016

My first impression was dust on the negatives during exposure. Film holders and even cameras tend to attract dust. The holders should be thoroughly cleaned. Loading film should be done in a dust-free environment.

georgegrosu · Nov 28, 2016

I'm curious, black and white photos are all from a film developed together?
In Img155 I see small black dots on the left and clear and in the right side points higher and more open and somewhat hazy.
Failure can be defined as poverty of silver in the image.
How is formed less silver in those points?
The developer is generally a solution homogeneous.
I do not use Ilford film and I looked online at some images.
Generally, the grain is smaller in pictures on the internet compared with your film.
It is a problem of development or you have walked in digital editing?

George

chip j · Nov 28, 2016

Dirty wash water

Kilgallb · Nov 28, 2016

Jim Jones said:
My first impression was dust on the negatives during exposure. Film holders and even cameras tend to attract dust. The holders should be thoroughly cleaned. Loading film should be done in a dust-free environment.

Jim Jones said:
My first impression was dust on the negatives during exposure. Film holders and even cameras tend to attract dust. The holders should be thoroughly cleaned. Loading. film should be done in a dust-free environment.

I think you are correct. I had a lot of this with my 4x5s before I fixed the dust monster in the darkroom. If it is roll film clean the inside of the camera.

FujiLove · Nov 29, 2016

Kilgallb said:
I think you are correct. I had a lot of this with my 4x5s before I fixed the dust monster in the darkroom. If it is roll film clean the inside of the camera.

Dust and other material on the negative produce white spots on the print or scan. The marks in the image here are dark, which means the negative has light spots or holes in the emulsion. I can't see how debris on the negative could end up producing dark spots on a positive image, or am I missing something?

Agulliver · Nov 29, 2016

What scanner are you using? Are you able to clean it? Also try scanning with no negative present, are some spots on this scan? Best to rule out the scanner too.

bdial · Nov 29, 2016

FujiLove said:
Dust and other material on the negative produce white spots on the print or scan. The marks in the image here are dark, which means the negative has light spots or holes in the emulsion. I can't see how debris on the negative could end up producing dark spots on a positive image, or am I missing something?

Dust on the negative during exposure will produce black spots.

FujiLove · Nov 29, 2016

bdial said:
Dust on the negative during exposure will produce black spots.

Ah! Of course. Thanks for releasing my brain from it's hamster wheel.

georgegrosu · Nov 29, 2016

If no more factual information about defects on the negative remains like a discussion that each have met .
Sure as the dust on the negative can be taken into account.
From what I seen so far powder emulsion (from cutting and perforation) is about 1 mm.
The dust very fine from emulsion of film falls.
Faults that are seen in img155 are many, very small, and some appear clear and at about 3 cm distance are blurred ???

George

Odot · Nov 30, 2016

georgegrosu said:
If no more factual information about defects on the negative remains like a discussion that each have met .
Sure as the dust on the negative can be taken into account.
From what I seen so far powder emulsion (from cutting and perforation) is about 1 mm.
The dust very fine from emulsion of film falls.
Faults that are seen in img155 are many, very small, and some appear clear and at about 3 cm distance are blurred ???

George

No poweder developer or anything with powder was used Sir. Only liquid components.

Odot · Nov 30, 2016

Agulliver said:
What scanner are you using? Are you able to clean it? Also try scanning with no negative present, are some spots on this scan? Best to rule out the scanner too.

Epson V550 - works pretty good and fast. I cannot compain. I have cleaned it thoroughly and still i see spots that i think have more to do with how i develop. The photos below were shot with my F100 today and they also have spots.

Interesting fact: they were both shot after eachother and all of the other do not have any "pinholes" at all

img629 (resize) by odotpap, on Flickr

img630 (resize) by odotpap, on Flickr

Odot · Nov 30, 2016

chip j said:
Dirty wash water

The wash water is absolutely clean, just like the container that the water comes from. Everything i use to develop will be washed before and after.

chip j · Nov 30, 2016

I had the problem, due to unfiltered wash water being forced in too fast-the debris made minute clear spots in the negs.

Odot · Nov 30, 2016

chip j said:
I had the problem, due to unfiltered wash water being forced in too fast-the debris made minute clear spots in the negs.

so you want me to pour the water in slower?

heres how i wash film:

5x agitation upside-down
10x
20x

pour out the last wash and fill up a cup with water (same temp as before), add about 10ml wetting agent, stir together and add to tank for 30 seconds

cliveh · Nov 30, 2016

Could this be due to undissolved particles of metol in your print developer?

"Dirt" spots - what to do?

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